A redditor posted a self-reddit in which he said that dating American women made him wonder if he would be better off gay. I think he meant more than just the joy of finally getting a competent blow job. He may have meant not being subject to date-rape accusations, or at least of having a fighting chance at defending himself, or less chance of being subjected to Intimate Partner Violence. Dunno; he didn’t elaborate.
I offered this:
You don’t have to be gay to get the benefits, and as others point out, there are big disadvantages to actually being gay – psycho boyfrends are as real as psycho girlfriends after all. And then there is all the institutionalized homphobia that is waiting everywhere. So just walk the walk – in borrowed boots – and you’ll see it pay off.
And incidentally you’ll be helping us who really are gay. Every straight man who is not afraid of being mistaken for gay is a nail in the coffin of homphobia.
Examples:
•Lady fail – when you get turned down and it’s obviously just a power play “I can get you all horny and then cut you off” – you suddenly get a call from “Jason” and you just can’t wait to get over to his place.
•Shaming tactics – “That’s why you never get laid!!!” – you answer “Get laid? Honey, I’ve probably had your father.” Ponder a bit… “…and your mother too, for all I know.”
•The occasional snippy comment about her clothes or whatever when she starts acting like her “business” is God’s gift to men.
But as others have also pointed out, if it gets to this point, it’s time to DTMFA and find one of the numerous, numerous good women out there. Believe me, they are watching and wondering why you put up with that shit.
- The Woman Card - May 2, 2016
- Frat boy bachelorettes and the invasion of gay bars - April 15, 2016
- “Not my kid….” - February 22, 2016
by 
Vaguely on topic, I am irresistibly reminded of a very funny song in which a straight man imagines why a straight women might wish she were a lesbian – Loudon Wainwright’s “IWIWAL“.
Another somewhat shaming tactic: “You’re propably gay”, usually said in a very derogatory way. But I love it, because I can always answer with “What would be the problem with that?”
Welcome,
That’s a good answer. it’s respectful. here’s one for those times when respectful answers are not really appropriate:
” Gay? You make me wish I were.”
(That’s not original. I stole it off of Churchill, basically.)
And also for those times when a less respectful answer would work:
“Yeah. I bet I’d get more cock than you do.”
One of the many awesome things I discovered when I admitted to myself a few years ago that I was bisexual, there are now several insults that don’t mean squat to me any more. “Cocksucker” being among them.
Additionally, I don’t care near as much what women think about me anymore. Sex is awesome and I’m a big fan of it, but I wish more men would realize that it’s not worth the debasement, humiliation and self-abuse so many men put themselves through just to “get some”
@ Paul
Sex with women is the last “transition to man” ritual left.
Which is ironic because it requires _returning_ to a submissive relationship with feminine culture rather then leaving it behind like most rites of passage for men in other cultures.
I’ve rejected the advances of several women in the last few years, and almost invariably I get angrily accused of being gay. My response: “Although I do love my gay brothers, it is unfortunate that I am only sexually attracted to women who aren’t bitches like you.”
Not very respectful, I admit, but respect must be earned, and angry accusations do not deserve respect.
Still waiting for a good MGTOW manifesto to be published. I’d suggest the title “Women Aren’t Worth It.”
“Not very respectful, I admit,…”
It’s comtemptuous as hell….wait, you were talking about your response. Not only does respect have to be earned, Bibo, but disrepesct can be earned too.
Copyleft,
““Women Aren’t Worth It.” is probably the best title anyone could come up with. I have seen one MGTOW manifesto and it leans way too tradcomn for me, with this crap about natural feminine and masculine roles and repsect for men and how women need to be led to respect men and all that.
How is worrying about women’s attitudes about men MGTOW? It’s not, it’s manipulative social engineering and thought policing.
Paul,
“Cocksucker” being among them.”
“And incidentally you’ll be helping us who really are gay. Every straight man who is not afraid of being mistaken for gay is a nail in the coffin of homphobia.”
JDC
““Yeah. I bet I’d get more cock than you do.”
I remember a big case in my unit when i was in Germany where a (female) NCO was having sex with a group of people junior to her, including actual subordinates. One of these other women was a loud and proud lesbian, which say what oyu will, always ws much more accepted in the Army. Anyway I recall the battalion commander ruefully observing that she almost surely got more pussy than any man in the unit.
Typhon,
“Sex with women is the last “transition to man” ritual left.’
This is a function of social and economic emasculation of low status men. You see it it most explicitly expressed in low status communities, because every other expression of manhood has been remved or has become too dangerous.
Copyleft,
I might make a slight edit to say: “Subservience isn’t worth it”
There are plenty of women who are worth plenty of things, but I don’t know any that are worth that.
Err, scratch that, “Women aren’t worth subservience”
“I might make a slight edit to say: “Subservience isn’t worth it”
There are plenty of women who are worth plenty of things, but I don’t know any that are worth that.”
Women, or anyone else, are worth the effort it takes to have an equal relationship – friendship, romantic, whatever. That is often not on offer. The gender roles work against it. Women who are willing to be equal partners are those who resist their enculturation. That’s always a rare person.
@TheBiboSez:
An alternative:
*laugh amiably, and remain smiling* “Okay, sure. And the next time you reject a guy, remember that makes you a lesbian.” (Emphasize “lesbian” with some fake shocked facial expression and waving hands.)
Anytime I am called Gay I respond with, youre right I am Happy, go lucky. 🙂
“*laugh amiably, and remain smiling* “Okay, sure. And the next time you reject a guy, remember that makes you a lesbian.” (Emphasize “lesbian” with some fake shocked facial expression and waving hands.)”
I see the parallel, but I remember all too clearly that pressure tactic being used on women in the Army, and in fact not just in individual situations but systemically. The standard was either a woman was a lesbian or she was fucking the whole unit, and anything less than the whole unit and she was a lezzie.
Mock gay-shaming, as in yoyur example is one thing, but real gay-shaming as a respnse is not as approporaiate as scathing, flesh-shredding sarcasm and hostility. It should hurt.
“Anytime I am called Gay I respond with, youre right I am Happy, go lucky. :)”
Or: “How’s your dad been lately?”
Women, or anyone else, are worth the effort it takes to have an equal relationship – friendship, romantic, whatever. That is often not on offer. The gender roles work against it. Women who are willing to be equal partners are those who resist their enculturation. That’s always a rare person.
What absolute truth.
@Equillibrium
There’s an irony here.
A woman worth having a relationship with will do half the work to make it happen.
Starting with taking some risk in initiating and the financial burden of courtship.
That means a woman who’s worth it is, ironically, not “worth it”. 🙂
To be sure, I also wish some of these nominally straight male folk slotted as Nice Guys by unifems were gay too… just, the other kind of gay.
Speaking of closeted CAMAB lesbians on Reddit:
Let’s look at this thread, as it offers evidence of the existence of the Cotton Ceiling:
http://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/162a2f/male_i_need_help_with_my_current_girlfriend_who/c7sec11
This was someone who was, at the time, nominally male-identified who mentioned their girlfriend was probably going to leave them because she had come to realize she feels about women a way she didn’t think she felt. The cis lesbian commenters were uniformly supportive of our OP stepping back and basically, surrendering her to the other team. I posited that, perhaps, our OP was in a relationship with a girl like this because they could possibly both have been closeted lesbians, and asked OP if they had any gender issues they hadn’t mentioned. OP responded in the affirmative, and I have been talking with them to give them more information while they sort things out.
Notice the score my comments get from the cis-lesbian dominated board, never mind the fact that I was right. They actually think the prospect of getting two new members of the out lesbian community and preserving a relationship where at least one partner puts her happiness above their own was inferior to just having one girl come out of the closet. This is because they do not make a pretense of respecting trans women as women until they absolutely have to to preserve their progressive credentials.
It’s not that a given cis lesbian doesn’t want to sleep with a trans woman. It’s that all queers face being made pariahs for expressing or confirming attraction to trans women. This is the Cotton Ceiling, the yawning chasm between rhetoric and practice.
“This is because they do not make a pretense of respecting trans women …”
This sounds to my male ears like just another form of man-hatred. It sounds like they refuse to recognize you as women and this is how they express it.
“….. until they absolutely have to to preserve their progressive credentials.”
This is where they start tying themselves into knots. Their identity politics starts eating itself. They can’t even be honest bigots.
This sounds to my male ears like just another form of man-hatred. It sounds like they refuse to recognize you as women and this is how they express it.
That’s part of it, but it doesn’t expain the drooling objectificaiton of trans men… there is a refusal to explicitly recognize trans women as women and deny them the prerogatives of women, but at the same time, the anger directed at trans women who push back is laden with misogynistic and femmephobic (the two being separate, but frequently conflated by sexists) language.
This is where they start tying themselves into knots. Their identity politics starts eating itself. They can’t even be honest bigots.
Yep… of course, the outright bigots get their cognitive dissonance elsewhere.
“That’s part of it, but it doesn’t expain the drooling objectificaiton of trans men… ”
True. Where does that come from? Simple-minded “you go grrrl” boosterism of a woman doing whatsoever the fuck she feels like doing? Do they think of trans men as still-women?
They claim to… but honestly, the best explanation I heard of nominal cis lesbian drooling over trans men is they want to fuck a man but they can’t because lesbian-feminist credentials… this actually sounds more like it might be the case when I consider this reply to a debate on trans inclusion, and the wrong kind of trans inclusion, in women’s spaces:
http://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/15wzsz/the_love_of_my_left_me_because_im_not_a_man/c7rouzt
There’s a difference between the guy who jokingly says that they’re a lesbian because who doesn’t like two girls going at versus the guy who actually embraces the unique aspects of lesbian relationships, views women as true equals and respects women’s boundaries.
So in her eyes, men in lesbian spaces can be there if they’re sufficiently feminist… aka, have a vagina so that I can still defend my (cissexually-constructed) lesbianism to my peers, also all CAMAB.
*Also all CAFAB… typo there.
You really have a much stronger stomach than I do, is all I can say. I would end up going to jail.
Nah… I just have a different fight-or-flight response.
The thing is… as way too many narratives demonstrate… trans people ARE read as their neurological sex very early on… we don’t admit it, but the brain still reacts to it. Trans men most assuredly have male privilege, tend to be at the center of any nominally female spaces they’re in, even before transition, PLUS they get all those legal carve-outs for the cisfeminine. They do have to deal with cissexism, and that sucks, but not as much as they benefit from simultaneous CAFAB carveouts and male privilege, not to mention being read as cis pretty easily for the most part, so they need only out themselves when they want to mack on women’s space for example.