My answer to a sob story in Out Magazine about the ex-wives of gay men

Out Magazine ran a revolting article slamming gay men who have married women. It should be ironic that it appeared in Out, but sadly it is just one more example of the man-hating sepsis of fashionable feminism that is polluting the LGBTA community. Clearly it is time for us gay men to break away again and form our own communities.

The article is short and sour; please read the whole short thing.

It starts by focusing on Kaye and her woes. Kaye:

“In Brokeback Mountain, which I was very sickened by, they treat the wives as these weak, wimpy women,” Kaye says. “One was very stupid, and the other was a naggy, whiny wife, so you feel like she deserved it. I think people perceive straight wives as unsympathetic. They don’t feel bad for us. We are never the heroes.”

Oh that’s right – Brokeback Mountain was really all about dumping on the women. They’re real victims in that story – not the men who were crushed into roles and relationships by society’s bigotry against them. Thanks for clearing that up for us, Kaye. It’s always only ever about the women, the real victims by definition. Narcissist.

“Since 1999, Kaye has sold more than 25,000 books with titles like Straight Wives: Shattered Lives, The Gay Husband Checklist, and How I Made My Husband Gay. Her monthly newsletter, Bonnie Kaye’s Straight Talk, reaches 7,300 subscribers. She has two mantras that she beats into her followers, both blasted at the top of her Web site and newsletter:
Life was never meant to be this complicated. period.
And, you can’t fix a broken man, but he can break you.”

Broken man? Hardly. Any gay man with the strength to stay married to a straight woman for any length of time is hardly a weakling or a broken man, unless the relationship did that to him. By the way, Kaye, your sexist man-shaming language is duly noted.

Sold 25,000 books? So this is a career for her. So she’s a moral entrepreneur. That explains her Ferengi moral flexibility.

The article continues:

”She broadcasts a weekly radio talk show, Straight Wives, where she interviews other crusaders, survivors, husbands, and openly gay men who sleep with closeted married men. On a recent episode, one guest, a slow-talking Texan named Debra Sutton who’s involved in a support network in her home state, discussed her recently self-published book, Signs of a Gay Husband: Identifying Closeted Gay Husband Behaviors.

Those signs, for Sutton, include physical and verbal abuse, obsession with the gym, constantly grooming (wants to be ready for a sexual encounter at any time), secretive computer time, long trips to Home Depot, and derogatory comments about female smells.”

Derogatory comments about female smells? Oh let’s play flip the genders here. Is there any man who has not faced constant comments about how men stink? How about the depraved justification for circumcision that gets trotted out, that it’s for “hygiene”, because an uncut penis harbors “stuff”. And speaking of flipping the genders, you know that the smell of smegma is the same as fish sauce (patis, nam pla, nước mắm.) And when whichever one it is complains that gay men call women “fish”, guess what these men are referring to. Same same.

“Often, as the husband begins to grapple with his sexuality, these marriages become marked by manipulation and psychological and physical abuse.”

Some proof to back up this slanderous generalization would be appropriate here, but the gay white knight author of the article probably has none. But while we are on the topic of abuse, the stats are pretty clear that women commit the majority of psychological abuse and initiate the majority of physical abuse, so if there’s abuse in these relationship, guess who it most likely is coming from.

The article quotes Kaye some more:

“I call it gay-lighting,” Kaye says. “Like gaslighting, they make you feel like you’re crazy when you start to have suspicions. You question your ability to have clear judgment. They make you feel like you’re imagining it.”

Gay-lighting? You should call it by its right name, straight woman – the closet. This is how the closet works and it is straight people like you who make it a matter of survival.

Kaye is not done yet. Next she displays her profound and almost inhuman ignorance of what these men go through and the pressures to conform that they face:

“They aren’t heroes. They are men who made a mistake. Fixing a mistake doesn’t make you a hero,” Kaye wrote in a recent newsletter. “To all the gay men who never…married a woman, let me applaud you for being a hero, which means you had the courage to say NO when the tide turned against you. This was truly the noble quality that makes a hero.”

Kaye has no idea of what a hero is. That’s the first thing. The men made a mistake? Society doesn’t think so. The culture taught them do exactly what they did. They were playing by the rules, rules that straight people like you, Kaye, devised. That takes more strength than you can ever understand, Kaye. So how about you just suck it up and man up, at least a little?

The second thing is that Kaye clearly has no idea of what a gay boy faces in the way of pressure to live the straight life. She has no idea of what Brokeback Mountain was about, two men doomed to hopeless attempts to fit in and comply, sacrificing the one true love they would ever know.

Here’s Keegan Hirst describing that pressure:

“Keegan Hirst is now Britain’s first out Rugby League player.
Speaking to the Sunday Mirror, the 6-foot-4 captain says that being open about his sexuality has been a relief.
“At first I couldn’t even say ‘I’m gay’ in my head, let alone out loud,” Hirst says. “Now I feel like I’m letting out a long breath that I’ve held in for a long time.”
Raised by a single mother on a council estate in Batley, Hirst struggled with his sexuality for years.
“I had a wife and kids. I’ve been a builder, doorman, worked in factories, I play rugby. I tick every macho box. How could I be gay? I’m from Batley for goodness sake. No one is gay in Batley,” Hirst said.”

But why ask an actual gay man about it; we have Kaye to femsplain it all to us.

The article goes on to mention and quote another woman, Barbaretta, who is a great deal more human about this whole issue than Kaye manages to be.

“When a man represses his sexuality and he starts to come out, it’s like he was stuck in adolescence and now it’s a newfound freedom,” Barbetta says. “He feels joyful and happy, but for the straight wives, our lives have been lost. Our hopes and dreams are shattered.”

Okay, this part I get. This is exactly how a lot of men feel when their wives initiate a divorce. There is panic and vertigo as you see your life upended. But these men get no sympathy, and I have to say neither does Barbaretta, at least from me. While I can see that on a personal level these women suffer, on an interpersonal level they are instruments of a homophobia. They are the iron maiden these gay men get jammed into. When with a boy grows up hearing nothing but hatred and contempt aimed at gay men, how is it any surprise that he marries a woman? And it is always pushed as some kind of moral imperative, just one more example of male disposability.

Barbaretta again:

“I’m a firm believer in forgiveness,” Barbetta, a Catholic, says. “Bonnie looks at it more as acceptance.”
“I’m not a Christian. We don’t have that forgiveness thing,” Kaye says, referring to her Jewish background. “I tell women, ‘Forgive yourselves.’ ”

Uh no. Since these women aren’t the wronged party, and haven’t directly wronged anyone, it’s not their place or their repsonsibility to forgive anything. But that’s about Kaye’s level of moral awareness.

The article winds up with a particularly nasty story, nasty on several levels:

“Not everyone gets divorced. A new term has come into use for these couples: mixed-orientation marriages, or MOMs. Bobby and Sue, not their real names, met in 1982 in Manhattan while they were both in high school. Within two months, Bobby told Sue of his physical attraction to men and she arranged for his first sexual encounter with a guy, a friend of hers. Bobby and Sue married, had a son, and moved into a grand apartment in an 1885 Italian-revival building near Central Park, where they still live with their son, now 24.
Sue allowed Bobby to have “playdates” — trysts with men — which Bobby says still happen once or twice a year.
“Most couples in our situation are flying under the radar because no one wants to out themselves as a mixed-orientation marriage,” Sue says, sitting with Bobby in their living room before a pair of floor-to-ceiling Tiffany stained-glass windows. They worry, she adds, using her own case as an example, that people would say, “Bobby is just hiding behind me to have a straight life.”
“We’re in a relationship for 33 years. This is us,” Bobby says.
“And we’re not staying together because we have to,” Sue adds.
But in the summer of 2001, Bobby fell madly in love with a man named Tom who was closeted and married with children. Tom lived in Chicago, they met online, and soon the two were making regular trips back and forth. It marked the beginning of a difficult time for Bobby and Sue.
“Before then, I never knew I could be emotionally attracted to a man, only physically,” Bobby says.
“They had sex while I was out,” Sue says. “It was a little odd at first. I’m walking around the streets looking at people, thinking, How many of them have husbands at home having sex with another man while they’re out doing the Saturday-morning shopping?”
Sue eventually came on board, and the three would take trips to Atlantic City — Tom was an avid gambler. Bobby and Sue became fixtures in Tom’s family. They went to his daughter’s wedding and spent countless holidays in Chicago. The lie they told Tom’s wife and family was that he and Bobby bonded in a 9/11 chat room.
In 2005, four years into their relationship, after returning from a Fourth of July visit with Tom and his family, Bobby got a sudden call from Tom’s wife that he had been diagnosed with cancer, was in hospice, and had only a short time to live. He jumped on a flight back to Chicago and found Tom in a hospital bed, his wife asleep on his shoulder.
“I touched his hand and he woke up and said, ‘Kiss me.’ But then his wife woke up,” Bobby says. He begins to cry. Tom died the next night with his family by his bedside and Bobby standing against the wall in the hospice room, watching Tom take his last breath.
“That was the hardest thing to do,” Bobby says, choking up, “not being able to touch him.” He flew back to New York the next day. But first, he went over to Tom’s house to erase his hard drive”

Erasing his hard drive. More “gay-lighting, I suppose. Because that’s the most important takeaway, isn’t it, the thing you choose to end the story on, rather than the civilized accomodation this couple has built.

That’s the first nastiness. The second is presenting this civilized accomodation as though it is some kind desirable model for others.

If this post seems disjointed, that’s because this is an initial reaction. I was disgusted and disappointed to see an article like this in Out.

Latest posts by Jim Doyle (see all)

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  • Guestronomy

    He flew back to New York the next day. But first, he went over to Tom’s house to erase his hard drive”
    The chap is dead, erasing the hard drive is an act of kindness to his family,
    what reason but spite would the be not to?

    • Talking Cricket

      “An act of kindness” would have been not deceiving his entire family. An act of kindness would have been staying single. Peculiar view you have on acts of kindness.

      • Guestronomy

        The person who takes the blame for that is the dead guy, after he has died you have two options,
        (1) tell a grieving family that you have been fucking the deceased, if you are the sort of narcissist that demands their sex life dominates everything,
        or
        (2) not telling them and letting them keep a memory without being the sort of narcissist that demands their sex life dominates everything,

  • politicalcynic

    Classic feminism: Regardless of the event the woman is ALWAYS the victim and ALWAYS has it worse.

    Feminism has come full circle-right back to the open hatred of gay men they espoused at the time of Stonewall. For a while, they could USE gay men-as shields, as sources of money, as tokens…but now that they believe they no longer have a “use” for them they have become disposable-and, like all other men, are now appropriate targets for their venomous hate.

    And this is NOT the first disgusting thing I’ve seen in “Out”. They’re crumbling under the pressure of “intersectional feminism” which is gathering up the rest of the “alphabet soup” community they’ve created and attacking gay men if they are “white and gay” or “cis and gay” or in some instances just “gay”-because “man” must equal “enemy”. The comments from these “intersectional” folks on an incident in which drag performers were going to be banned from a Pride event were nothing short of REVOLTING.

    “Clearly it is time for us gay men to break away again and form our own communities.”

    Yes. This.

    • Talking Cricket

      And what is the treatment for closeted lesbian women who deceived their straight male partners? Let me guess, they are actually the bed guys, because lesbians have a vagina, right? Wrong! The issue here is lying, not being mal or female or straight or gay.

      • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

        “And what is the treatment for closeted lesbian women who deceived their straight male partners?”
        If they were in denial when they got married, no they deceived no one. They believed the same thing themselves.
        What about a trans woman? Was she being deceitful when she married ten or twenty years ago? To ask the question is to show how inhuman it is.
        “Let me guess, they are actually the bed guys, because lesbians have a vagina, right? ”
        You really shouldn’t rely on your guesses because the seem to be nothing but a projection of your own gender bigotry.
        As a matter of fact these lesbians are my sisters. They started proving that back when AIDS got going.

    • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

      “Feminism has come full circle-right back to the open hatred of gay men they espoused at the time of Stonewall.”
      No shit. See the comments below for verification.

      • politicalcynic

        I’m particularly impressed by the outrage and the “femsplaining” going on in those comments.

        I love how they can sit there on their pedestals of “we’re always the victim” and lecture gay men about things like this when they’ve never been gay men, have no knowledge of what it’s like to be a gay man-but they can, from their high and mighty perch, explain to ALL of us how they’re STILL always the perpetual “victim”. Apparently being a “feminist” grants them telepathic powers now?

        The vitriol in the comments simply proves what you said-and they don’t even realize it. They have decided to return to their roots, and return to their despotic hatred of gay men-and then they are “shocked and appalled” when we tell them to get stuffed.

        They shouldn’t be. It is the posters like those in these comments that have demonstrated, in part, why I no longer support feminism. It is because of their toxic insistence that no matter the circumstances, it is always “man bad, woman victim” and there is no other paradigm for them. It is an ideology that is sexist and bigoted against all men (gay or straight) and therefore is not want that any thinking person should be a part of.

        • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

          “The vitriol in the comments simply proves what you said-and they don’t even realize it. They have decided to return to their roots, and return to their despotic hatred of gay men-and then they are “shocked and appalled” when we tell them to get stuffed.”
          They don’t even know how to hide it. It’s a measured of how much women’s feelings are valued over men’s in this culture. They just assume stating they are hurt or offended is some kind of damning accusation.

          • politicalcynic

            Ah yes “I’m hurt and offended”

            Generally speaking I find the best response to that when it is said by a feminist is “Good”.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            This discussion has really been about gay men bashing the out magazine article and Bonnie Kaye. All I can say is Bonnie must have hit a raw nerve with some.

          • Ruth

            Perhaps I am not up to speed on this magazine article, or at least the bashing you are talking about. Maybe you can point m e in the right direction. I’m not much of a fan of attacking the messengers but I do enjoy discussing the messages. I hope nothing I wrote came across as bashing Mrs. Kaye because that was not my intention. I pointed out positive and negative of both sides.

            You will let me know if I have offended won’t you?

            Debra, as you seem a very reasonable woman, and you have been so kind to respond to some of my comments, I hope this dialogue continues. It seems rather healthy compared to some of these harsh tones. But, not knowing Mrs. Kaye the way you seem to, I do want to ask your opinion about what Mrs. Kaye wrote about herself. What is your impression of her actions when she was 17? She stated she got pregnant on purpose to get out of her home and to get her boyfriend to marry her. The end result was not as she intended but, she did get pregnant on purpose with that intent and then ended the life of a baby as a result. What is your view of such actions? I wonder if she ever told he father of the child.

            I really look forward to your views on this as it is a matter of fact that she shares with us, not something to attack anyone over. Ruth

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            Ruth this site that you are commenting on is about the Out Magazine Article.

          • Ruth

            I’m aware of that, I found the topic most interesting. As I had clarified, I presumed it was the “bashing” that I was unaware of that you were referring to. But that is no matter, I don’t care to get in the middle of such innocuous exchanges. I guess it went over my head which I’m probably all the better for. But I do realize now that this holds much more personal emotion for some of the commenters than I realized. My discussing things so dispassionately probably strikes a chord with some so I will definietly be much more attentive to my own wordings and points made.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            Ruth,

            Jim Doyle the one who wrote this post about the sob story in out magazine has been all over the Internet bashing Bonnie Kaye on her Amazon book reviews. He even bashed her on my Amazon book review, it was so bad that Amazon removed it. He did come though to give me another critical review with a little less Bonnie bashing. I think he has several profiles that he uses to do this, or it may be friends of his. He was also commenting or having people comment on the out magazine article directing people with the link to his reviews on Amazon.

      • CM Chippy

        this may have too much truth for the(probably gay) woman haters here…but there you have it ..so “suck it up”

  • CM Chippy

    This Jim Doyle creature is just one more toxic example of the ugly narcissism that exists in this cowardly section of the gay “community” which chooses to hide in their dark closets by marrying straight women and somehow manage to use their well honed skills for deceit and lying….to fool these unsuspecting women into thinking they are straight men…this Doyle creature of course is typical of those despicable pieces of dung who seem to take some sort of perverse pride in their ability to take complete advantage of these women ….when their ugly subhuman defects are pointed out by someone as noble…and intelligent ..and compassionate..(oh the list of very fine qualities could go on and on) as Bonnie Kaye….who knows truth and just wants to tell it..then he goes on a raving madman’s type of defense…because obviously he is like … all the rest of them….it’s always…always all about them….a pox on them all…and if karma really exists…my dream job would be driving the karma bus when ..and hopefully if any..and/or all of them are thrown under it

    • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

      Do you actually have an argument or are you just emoting?

      This Jim Doyle creature is just one more toxic example of the ugly narcissism that exists in this cowardly section of the gay “community” which chooses to hide in their dark closets by marrying straight women and somehow manage to use their well honed skills for deceit and lying”

      Standard issue man-hating hompohobic twattle. You are meaningless.

      Oh, yes, pity the poor straight women. It’s not the entire society doesn’t revolve around their vaginas.

      • CM Chippy

        This may come as a terrible shock to the toxic likes of you …but I don’t really give a flying whatever what you think of me or my “straight” vagina

        • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

          “This may come as a terrible shock to the toxic likes of you …”
          That’s rich – you calling anyone toxic after the filth you posted above.
          “but I don’t really give a flying whatever what you think of me or my “straight” vagina”
          Hahahaha.
          Liar – but not a very competent liar. You are so uninterested that you come her to post your toxic hate-filled vileness.

          • CM Chippy

            I’.ve had just about enough of you and your hate filled childish replies…you can post all the venom at you want…I just won’t be reading them…

          • politicalcynic

            You’re the one who came in with the toxic attack, buttercup. Running away now? Gee. Such empowered courage that shows…not.

          • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

            It’s called a flounce. It has to be very dramatic, so it has to be announced.

          • politicalcynic

            I love the smell of flounce in the morning.

          • Mr Chippy

            My dear Ms Chippy,

            Here I find you once more. Why must I be forever chasing after you? Every time I look the other way, off you go again. Don’t tell me you’re still harping about your latest ex-husband? Why can’t you just let it go? It’s been thirty years and still an everlasting funeral marches ’round your heart. Am I really your soul-mate now or do you pine away yet for that man?

            Sometimes i lay awake at night in our bed and think you must still be sweet on him to carry around so much hatred and anger all these years later. I would put my arms around you and hold you, but you know my arms don’t reach that far.

            Now I mean it this time. Mind your own business and leave these poor people alone. They have not done anything to you. How many times must I tell you – life was never meant to be this hard, but you keep bringing it on yourself!

            Do all the rest of you see what I have to put up with here?

      • Talking Cricket

        Ginkgo, your vagina talking does not support your argument (do you even have one?). The entire issue is not a matter of male/female fights. This is a matter of LIES. Straight men deceived by closeted lesbian women feel the exact same way. They have been deceived. The point is not being a female whiner (totally judgmental and off the point remark). The core issue here is being betrayed. Liars come in all genders and sexual orientations. This happen to be a problem with gay liars – whether they are males or females. Society pushed them in the closet? We feel for them. NOT a good reason to take it on other, unwitting and honest individuals.

        • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

          “This is a matter of LIES.”
          Half the time the men you so judgmentally condemn believe those lies – so they aren’t lies. They have been raised to believe those lies and hate the truth. it’s called growing up around straight people.
          ” Straight men deceived by closeted lesbian women feel the exact same way.”
          Yes, and the point is they receive no sympathy at all. And if they dare to complain they are slammed as patriarchal Neanderthals.
          ” They have been deceived. The point is not being a female whiner (totally judgmental and off the point remark). The core issue here is being betrayed”
          Well you are quite selective in your condemnation of this betrayal, because it is no different from a woman who swears till death do us part and then decides – and the majority of divorces are initiated by women – that she no longer feels that tingle and it’s time to go.
          When you condemn, explicitly, “Eat, Pray and Love – then you will begin to have some kind of point. Although not really, because that woman is under nothing like the pressure brought to bear on gay men and boys. they have much more choice in the matter.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            As a straight spouse we were not given the facts when we married gay men. We were lied to and deceived so our choice to marry were literally taken from us. We would have never knowingly married or made a choice to stay in a marriage to a gay man. These men made a choice to lie and deceive for their own selfish reasons they used these women.

          • Ruth

            My dear, many a marriage has been founded on pretense of one form or another. I was not quite the virgin my first husbnd believed me to be. But, as there was no consequence I did not find need to correct him since I was the only one who knew othrwise. I think it is very likely he wouldn’t have married me if he knew the truth. We spent 12 very joyful years together…in yiddish we say bashert…the perfect pair brought together by fate. Who knows how it would have been differnt had he known and we not married. But I won’t worry over sometthing i cannot know. We did marry..and much of it was good. He never returned from the Vietnam War and he never got to meet our daughter. We are not on different pages..I don’t encourage or condone lying withn a marriage. But it happens..often. It is not so much the tragedies that happen in our marriages and families..but how we respond to these events that defines who we are as women. I don’t know how long you were married to your husband..or husbands…but I sense the pain he caused you and your feelings that something was stolen from you. Whatever it is that he did or did not do is in the past, it cannot be undone. How you responded to it and made your own choices within that relationship is what defines you. I wonder how long you were together? I also wonder if he felt he was stealing those years from you? What I would encourage most if you were my own daughter would be to stop calling yourself a straight spouse…that is a label that only exists for you if you let your homosexual husband define who you are. You are no longer his accessory..you are Debra..your own person. I know there is value in helping others with their struggle, but you might model for them how to let go of all that and define yourself and let that be part of your past. I have only been married to heterosexual men..as far as I know. Although my son says he wouldn’t have put it past his father (my 2nd husband) to have experimented. He was the adventurous type. I don’t know about that, but I have never considered myself a straight wife even though I’ve always been married to straight husbands.

            I find it curious that sttraight spouse only has meaning to define you in the context of you having had a gay husband. If you are divored why are you tramatizing yourself and defining yourself on his terms? Why not just Debra happily..divorced from my loser ex husband? Calling yourself a straight spouse reinvigorates your memories, experiences, name calling, shame, pain…everything you associated with that marriage. Why? I don’t understand why you want to stay so bonded to that label and experience? You spent so much time and energy shedding that bad husband…why not shed it completely and discover the new you who has no definition or association with your straight spouse past?

            I can tell you looking back..all men use women..all women use men. Just in varying degrees…for different things..some benevolently others not so much so. But again, his using and deceiving you is inhe past. I see some comments, not from you I don’t believe, that are resentful that their husband has moved on and has a boyfriend or husband and is living his life. Why would someone who was used or deceived by him want to stay fixated on this period of your life, and define yourself by these terms. It seems unhealthy to me. I very much look forwardd to your response.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            Dear Ruth, I will not let this experience define me and I do not think of myself as a victim. I spent 22 years of my life in this marriage. It is not all about him being gay, my ex husband was very abusive during our marriage. Realizing he is gay I recognized there is no hope for the marriage, and yes I should have left years ago for the abuse alone. I have had to do much soul searching about myself to learn why I would stay with an abuser. I know straight men can be abusive too. It does hurt when someone lies to you about who they are. I spent many years with this man so it did leave me feeling like my years were stolen. I do blame myself for this. Realizing the person you loved is not who they say there are is much like the death of a loved one. It’s grieving for someone who never existed. If my husband had ever come to me with the truth I would have shown compassion and understanding after my initial shock and anger. The anger is only a phase in the grief process. We all move past this.

        • Ruth

          Yes but this is no different than when my 1st husband cheated on me with numrous women..he was a liar. And when my 1st son’s wife embezzled money from the family business. Lying happens a lot and hurts people. What homosexuals are doing in their marriage hurts but it is not a crime like embezlement. Hard to believe there is nothing else wrong in these marriages that the husband was just a master liar from day one. Something doesn’t seem like that’s likely. But if it was then he is creepy and deserves scorn. But as a woman I have a hard time believing the heterosexual husbands/wives are all perfect and nothing at all wrong with them that they ended up in this marriage. I would like to talk to some of the homosexual wivesand husbands to hear their version.

    • Ruth

      I don’t know these people I only know what I can read from them. I bet both have honorable motives and both have selfish motives. Yes, Jim Doyle uses harsh language but also makes some good poiints. Bonnie Kaye has had problems that she writes about but also makes some good points. I think both of them make some stereotypes about women (Mr. Doyle) and about homosexual husbands (Mrs. Kaye) so I don’t know that the name calling makes a winner. I am curious that Mrs. Kaye writes that when she was 17 she got pregnant on purpose to trap her older boyfriend into marrying her. That is exactly what would have happened back in those days. An abortion must have been tramatic at that age and in those days. But, if not for her mother Mrs. Kaye would have probably gotten her friend to marry her. How is thtat different than gay husbands who are pressured into getting married? It seems likke Mrs. Kaye has a checkered past (as we would have called it in my day) by her telling of her story. That was a lot going on in her life before she got marrried to her husband. And those poor kids. She says her kids lived in a war zone when they wre married. It seems like there is a lot more to this than just a homosexual husband. Does he tell his story someplace? Or the kids? Maybe she has fine qualities, I don’t know, but her own words bring up scary images and situations that have nothing to do with her husband. So we should be careful about demonizing anyone or putting on a pedestal anyone. Yes?

  • Debra Sutton

    Jim you write these women aren’t the wronged party. So you see nothing wrong with lying and deception. You are further proof that some, I say some because I realize not all are like you, cannot take responsibility for the harm they cause others. While I’m sure gay men in the closet have suffered with their sexual identity, this does not give them the right to harm others. You Jim do not help gay men, you only hurt them with your woman hating ideals.

    • http://www.genderratic.com/ Ginkgo

      “Jim you write these women aren’t the wronged party. So you see nothing wrong with lying and deception. You are further proof that some, I say some because I realize not all are like you, cannot take responsibility for the harm they cause others.”

      As do these w3omejn, just by being who they are. They are part of this system.

      What you cannot grasp is that you and other straight women or men are in no position these men, or these women. For one thing, a [person raised in this society will usually be in denial about their same-sex attraction. They may think “at worst” that they are bisexual. Do you even know what I am talking about?

      You Jim do not help gay men, you only hurt them with your woman hating ideals.”

      Oh, please do femspalin to me how I am not helping gay men. Please femsplain to me what our best interests are. Your arrogance if pretty contemptible.

      you only hurt them with your woman hating ideals.”
      Oh yes, the welfare of women trumps absolutely every other consideration for your kind.

      • Ruth

        I’m not sure what femsplain is but I think youu are right that both people are victims in these situations. And there was probably more that is wrong in thse marriages than just that he’s homosexual so Im not sure that the heterosexual spouse can claim any specialty of being a victim but like homosexuals, women when I was growing up didn’t have a lot of choices. But I have to say that for all the choices I didn’t have in the 40s, 50s and 60s..one choice I did have was who I married..and stayed marred to. Come hell or high water, and all marriages have both, I chose to stay married..that was my choice. Other women make their own choices but we can’t blame men for the choices we make or don’t make. When our husbands screw up..and they all do…just like we do..we have choices we can make or not make. Even when they do wrong…we have choices. We can’t blame him for our choices, and we can’t take responsibility for his choices..good or bad.

        • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

          Yes we all have choices, which is exactly the point. The straight wives choice was taken from her with lies and deceit. We never would have married or stayed married to these men if we knew they were gay.

          • Dennis

            why wasn’t being miserable and unhappy enough to leave him or at least get help? what difference does it make that he was gay? you say it’s about the lies, and the deceit, and the mistrust, and the selfishness, and the cruelty, and the cheating, and the narcissism and the lack of intimacy or kindness, and on and on and on it goes, but none of that is enough for you to leave? you were able to stay with him for all that mistrteatment? but as soon as you find out he’s gay… Shazam! Holy glitter bombs, Batman! all of a sudden you can leave?

            that sure sounds to me like it really WAS all about the gay thing all along, since you were willing to stay with him and put up with the other stuff..It’s like you were saying “Go right ahead and mistreat me all you like, and I’m fine with it, as long as you aren’t gay.”

          • Ruth

            That seems a bit harsh Dennis. There are many reasons why people stay in unhealthy relationships. We can’t presume to know all that was going on for Debra. You ask some good questions but maybe you could ask them in a less attacking or offensive way before you start ridiculing. That’s just my two cents.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            Dennis you are right I should have left him years ago. The abuse alone was reason enough to leave. I do ask myself why I stayed so long. The fact that he is gay takes away all hope for a relationship. He could never feel toward me as a wife.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            A new comment was posted on Honey Badger Brigade
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            Dennis

            Debra, I will say you do sound more reasonable than Bonnie does, and more willing to admit and discuss your own foibles. Can I assume you do NOT attribute his psychotic episodes to being gay? Or do you assume a cause and effect, or some sort of interaction there?
            Your last statement comparing out, self-accepting gay men to closeted gay men makes me wonder how many closeted gay men you know personally, besides your husband, compared to out, proud gay men you might know.
            I know plenty of both, and the main difference I see between the two groups is not that the closeted men are cruel or unkind. What I see is that they are timid, nervous, self-conscious, easily influenced and manipulated by their immediate environment, and lacking self-confidence. More mice than men, if you will, and I don’t like to say it that way, but that is what I see. Of those that are also married to women, what I can observe and honestly describe is that the wife is generally bossy, take-charge, sarcastic and a bit snotty, and the husband sits there sheepishly and takes it – because he does not want to make waves or rock the boat.
            The most extreme coupl e I know is that one of these wives is openly and proudly anti-gay, religiously so and she does not hold back: She knows better than to aim her barbs at me, because I will fling it right back in her face and I don’t care; I don’t let anyone treat me with disrespect; but she does not like the fact that her husband and I are friends. Nothing more than that, just friends, and going back years before they met, and she doesn’t like that.
            Even I did not know he was gay, I always assumed he was straight, but then he only told me a few years after they had been married, and even then, he was only questioning it, if he might possibly be gay, he knew he had feelings but he didn’t understand what they meant and he began asking me lots of questions. I have tried to convince him man y times that the life he is living is going to put him in an early grave, and he deserves so much better than what he permits himself. Of course, she has no idea of the torment that her homophobic rants put him through, and because of her rantings, he does not feel safe to come out to her, so he internalizes all of it, and there they are, stuck with each other. The tragedy I think, is that somewhere deep inside him there exists a belief that agrees with her homophobic ranting and raving, and religious judgments, and he can’t work his way through it when it’s there living in his house all the time. I feel like I can see the tragedy that is almost certain to come.
            The others I know aren’t as locked in position as those two, but the men are certainly not bullies or narcissis ts, quite the opposite. Nice, quiet, polite… and scared and skittish, and their wives pretty much run the show. I don’t get how anyone can live that way, either of them. But it makes it very difficult to believe in Bonnie’s one-size-fits-all approach to a very complicated and painful issue.
            12:26 a.m., Wednesday Sept. 23 | Other comments by Dennis

            Reply to Dennis

            Dennis’s comment is in reply to Debra Sutton:

            Dennis,

            I was not the wife you speak of above. It was in fact the other way around it was my ex-husband who was the bully in the marriage, but he was insecure about himself and depressed throughout the marriage. I know abuse can happen in any relationship as I was married once before to a straight man who was also abusive. Coming out of this marriage I had to ask myself why I was willing to put up with abuse from men, gay or straight is not the question here. I am not homophobic, so I don’t think this was an issue. My ex was 28 when we married and 51 when we divorced. He grew up in a small town in the south. When he was a child in school he had a gay uncle who taught at the school he attended. People made fun of his gay uncle and he joined the crowd. He told me later he felt bad for making fun of his uncle. I believe growing up in the south and seeing his uncle ridiculed attributed to my ex staying in the closet.

            I cannot see my ex treating or bullying a man the way he bullied me, a man would not take it. As far as women who are married to closeted gay men being nasty and domineering I think this can go on in any relationship. It really does not support what I have seen in marriages where women were unknowingly married to gay men. I cannot say I have never seen this, because I have. It seems in this situation the women need to hold on to the relationship through control, but in actuality they have no control.

            I have known many gay people throughout my life. Some I have known since I was a teen. Most of them did not hide who they are, but there were a few in the closet that I knew about. I can understand why some want to stay in the closet. It’s hard to understand the marriage to a straight woman. I can say the marriage caused us both great pain. I’m glad it’s over so we can both heal.

            I cannot say for sure what caused the psychotic episodes. I did think it may have been caused by the stress of living in the closet for so long. It was after these episodes that he wanted to be free.

            Disqus

          • InsideGuy

            Debra, I’m trying to understand the conundrum.. it’s an unhappy and abusive marriage but you stayed with him? It was an abusive and neglectful marriage but you thought of him as your best friend? It sure sounds like there’s a dynamic going on here that has nothing to do with him being a closeted gay man. Have you talked with a therapist? What did they have to say? You said you were in an abusive marriage before that one, so was this husband your escape route from the previous one? That would make sense, it’s a common thing, but that would say a lot about how your second marriage formed and him being in the closet, if he even knew back then, sounds like there were much stronger dynamics driving you to together. My armchair psychology (all I know is from what I’ve seen on TV) says to me that you two were like two alcoholics who left your original spouses to be alcoholics together.. if you get the idea… whatever each of your real issues are can be substituted for alcoholic in the example. But blaming your misery on his “alcoholism” overlooks half the problem..those you brought into the relationship with you. Im curious how long into your marriage until he was abusive? A year? Two? How long into your marriage before you were unhappy or miserable? Two years? Four? Whatever number you fill in to answer those questions.. I’ll grant you some leeway that he is responsible for the pain he caused you up to that point. But as soon as he hit you. As soon as you realized you were miserable. Every year after that is on you.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            Staying in the situation I was in is on me. You are right. I agree. I don’t blame my ex for all of life’s problems. I only wish he had been honest with me.

    • Ruth

      Debra, are you perfect? Did you never lie to your husband about anything, ever? Come on, we all have lied to our spouse. Did you never hurt the ones you love even though you never intended to? Did you never get in an accident that was your fault? Forget an event? Break a law? Some of the best people end up hurting the ones they love and there was no avoiding it. It’s hard to fault homosexuals who grew up when I did in the 40s,50s,60s all the way up to today. There was no acceptance or gay rights. They did what everybody else did. My son is homosxual and was married for 21 years and has FIVE children, my lovely grandchildren. Leanne, the mother of my grandchildren is remarried and had 2 more children I treat like my grandkids. She never left our family and there is no love lost between them, God bless. Aren’t these men victims too? Do we really need to keepscore who did what. Therewas happiness and my grandchildren (all 12 of them) including my Henry’s five are all blessings that would not have happened if they didn’t get married. It wasnot easy when they figured things out but they did and we are all still very happy. I feel bad that some mena nd women had bad spouses who were selfish but I don’t think we can call all people in that situation names because you were hurt. Every person is different and we each should speak for ourselfs and our life but not think everyone else is like that or the same.

      • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

        Dear Ruth there is no perfect person in this world. While I realize that gay men had a very hard time coming out in the fourties, fifties, sixties, and can certainly understand why they stayed in the closet. What I don’t understand is marrying a straight woman and deceiving her for years. It is different than a straight husband who cheats with women. Unless you have personally experienced this, you have no idea. I’m not unsympathetic to what gay men go through. It’s difficult when men like Jim think that no harm was done to the straight spouse. I don’t understand all the bashing of Bonnie Kaye who has been a life line for women in this situation, while also showing compassion and understanding for what the gay husband goes through. Of course at least in the beginning of finding out our husbands are gay we go through the cycles of grief, anger being one of the phases. It is only a phase, we all eventually move passed this. Most straight spouses are advocates for gay rights. Many have children with their gay ex-husbands and they find a way to remain friends. Bonnie Kaye helps these women reach a point of compassion and acceptance,

        • Dennis

          Bonnie Kaye does NOT show understanding of what gay husbands go through. She wants you to believe she does, but she doesn’t. You all keep saying that only another straight spouise knows what you go through: that seems to be your mantra. “We’re special. Nobody else can ever understand our pain.”

          Well, honey-babe, let me tell you… it works both ways. Only a gay man understands what another gay man goes through. Bonnie hasn’t got a clue about it, but she knows how to talk like she does. If she were as understanding and sympathetic as she claims, she wouldn’t vilify us the way she does. That’s why she gets bashed: nobody likes a hypocrite. Your gay husbands may have been hypocrites, but so is she. Bless her heart.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            I would not even pretend to know what a gay man goes through. I do have empathy, but this does not excuse the fraud they perpetrated on the women they marry.

          • Dennis

            A mistake does not constitute fraud. A mistake is unintended and accidental, usually the result of a misunderstanding; fraud is a preconceived, planned and deliberate act of deception.

            Do you agree or disagree with Bonnie when she says that almost all of these husbands go into their marriages with the best of intentions, truly loving their wives, and wanting to share a life with them? Is hers an accurate assessment of the husband’s motivations, in your view?

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            Dennis my ex husband was only 28 when we married. I believe he could have been confused about his sexuality. I don’t think it took him 22 years to know he is gay. I believe he wanted to be straight. As the years went on he began to suffer breakdowns with psychosis called brief reactive psychosis. It’s hard to say he cared for me because of the way he treated me. I did think we were friends during our marriage. In fact when my marriage ended I felt like I was loosing my best friend. He always told me I was his best friend. In the end he proved this was not true. I don’t judge all gay men by my ex-husband. I think gay men who are not in the closet who are able to accept themselves and others are much kinder than closeted gay men.

          • http://signsofagayhusbandbydebrasutton.com Debra Sutton

            It does not take 22 years to fix a mistake. People are sorry for mistakes they make and do what they can to make things right.

      • Dennis

        Uhm… Ruth? I am perfect, just ask my Mom. Or ask Mrs. Wilson next door. But Mr. Wilson doesn’t seem to think so.

  • LoomingDarkness

    Bonnie Kaye is clearly a joke and I’m starting to think Debra Sutton and her other followers are just in on the joke or need professional intervention.

    http://www.gayhusbands.net

    • InsideGuy

      I’m not familiar with their work but I agree with most of the points made by honeybadger. I will call Mrs. Kaye out on one point…she must be the worst Jew ever if she can actually make the comment in a national magazine that Jews don’t have the forgiveness thing. What the heck is she talking about? Forgiveness and repentance are two themes woven through the bible and through Judaic laws and traditions. She may want to talk to her Rabbi about Yom Kippur.. one of the few major Jewish holidays. It’s emphasis is Atonement and Forgiveness. What an idiot. If she knows twice as much about gay men as she knows about Judaism, she should still marry herself a a gentile with an IQ below 50.. they’ll be a good match.

  • Vishal Choradiya

    I identify myself as a gay man and am deeply offended by this article. Despite growing up in a community that’s highly conservative and a country that criminalises homosexuality, I had the basic sense from a very young age that marrying a woman without revealing what I knew about myself would be morally reprehensible. And no amount of societal pressure on me would justify my going ahead, because I have no right to deceive someone who is in no way responsible for the oppression I experienced.

    • InsideGuy

      I support your right to speak for yourself on that. But we can’t assume that any one of the men who marry women and then eventually come out as gay or bi knew before they were married and were being deceptive. It’s far more likely that they had no idea at the time. If anything, they likely thought they were bisexual and chose to marry the woman they fell in love with. The only way to know for sure is to ask him. Bottom line is, that it doesn’t really matter why they married back then.. what matters is how they handle their situation now. Hopefully with respect, dignity, openness, understanding. But, it’s a person by person, couple by couple situation.

  • Hope Hill

    You don’t get it at all. Another gay narcissist.