MISANDRY – Dismissing women’s rape of boys

Commenter MaMu1977 left one of his very powerful comments in Typhonblue’s post “Male Privilege: Slut Shaming”

 @Ginkgo

“Got lucky”?
In my 33 years on this planet, I’ve known 7 boys who have killed themselves as the result of adult women/young boy relationships. Two of them killed themselves to get away from their “loving stepmother”, two of them committed suicide after they were convinced that they’d be accused of rape if they ever left her, and the other three killed themselves when they were dumped and suddenly realised that they were persona non grata among their female peers. I won’t even go into the details about how every “pussyhound” that I’ve ever known was introduced to sex by a (much) older woman. There may be fewer female pederasts than male, but the females get coddled and protected from punishment while the males are (at the very least) warded away from their targets.

 You can try to dismiss an account like this with “data is not the plural of anecdotes” but then the burden of proof is on you to show how MaMu1977 is not a good sample, that his observations are anomalous.

Remember his account the next time you hear some moron claim that child rape hurts girls worse than boys. Does anyone have any stories of girls committing suicide as a result of having been raped as minors? I am sure there must be some, just never heard any.

And what’s going on with this?

Two of them killed themselves to get away from their “loving stepmother”,

Where were thier fathers in all this? Obviously the boys were living with their fathers if we area talking about step-mothers. Why did their fathers entrust them to this degree of abandonment to women who were not their mothers? This is as bad as when a mother lets her boyfriend/husband-of-the-month or whatever abuse her children.

I apologise for my fervour, but I’ve lost friends to this dynamic (in comparison, even the girls who I’ve known who were engaged in similar age-disparate relationships tended to muddle through.) Yet, we live in a world in which the same women who worry about whether Justin Bieber is going to dip his wick in the wells of his underage fans, seemed to see nothing wrong with a movie like this…

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_(film)

I think moderation would be something to apologize for.

And for the record, Justin Bieber was accused of having fathered a child by a grown woman who would have been a child rapist if she had in fact not been lying – it’s telling that she thought she could make a claim like that and not be risking rape charges.

Now that’s a real rape culture.

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126 thoughts on “MISANDRY – Dismissing women’s rape of boys”

  1. Bieber’s accuser was Mariah Yeater, and the “event in question” that she made up supposedly happened in August 2010 when Beiber would have been 16 (legal in some states) and she, 19 or even possibly, 18 (she’s 20 in 2012 and Beiber is 18, but I don’t know her birthdate). Thus your insinuation that the false accusation, if true, was “child rape” is rather disgusting. It wouldn’t be so in my state, for one.

    More to the point, there’s not so many suicides, esp of children, that I find MaMu’s story not to be credible. He’s known 7 teenage suicides by boys and yet Here’s the CDC:
    Children ages 10 to 14 — 0.9 per 100,000
    Adolescents ages 15 to 19 — 6.9 per 100,000
    Children ages 10 to 14 — 0.9 per 100,000
    Adolescents ages 15 to 19 — 6.9 per 100,000

    What are the odds?

  2. OK, let’s crunch some numbers and do the odds…

    According to your link, the numbers you gave were for one year, 2007. The young adult numbers (males ages 20 – 24) per 100,000 were 12.7. Since suicides can occur years or decades after the triggering event, it is appropriate to count these as well – indeed, the median age for child abuse related suicides is in the early thirties.

    Adding the three age-groups of suicides together, we get 12.7 + 0.9 + 6.9 = 20.5 suicides per cohort of (100,000 + 100,000 + 100,000) = 300,000 per year.

    As for the rates of abused kids who commit suicide, the rate is about 1% according to this Australian study: https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/4/suicide-and-fatal-drug-overdose-child-sexual-abuse-victims-historical-cohort

    Assuming these rates are more or less stable over the 33 years of Mamu1977’s life, we would get roughly 20.5 *33 = 676.5 male suicides in a moderately-sized city with 300,000 boys aged 10-24. If just 1% of these suicides were the result of female pederasty, then that would be 6.765 such suicides over 33 years, compared to Mamu’s claim of 7 – pretty damn close.

    Since female pederasty and related suicides always get a lot of prurient media play, Mamu’s numbers are plausible. Given that suicides tend to cluster (I’ve had 6 friends and personal acquaintences commit suicide in the last 2 years), Mamu’s numbers are more than reasonable to me.

  3. Adding insult to injury, when feminists compare girls to boys, you hear this boilerplate response:

    “Girls are nicer!
    Girls are neater!
    Girls are more sociable!
    Girls are more focused!
    Girls are brainier!
    Girls are more mature, at earlier ages, than boys!
    Why, I’d let my ten year old daughter keep an eye on the baby before I’d ask my fifteen year old son to do so…”

    But when you add sex to the equation…

    “She didn’t know what she was doing!
    She’s not ready to be a mother!
    She still watches cartoons!
    She can’t even cook!
    She doesn’t know how to pay bills or negotiate a lease!
    She was taken advantage of by some strange man who must have forced her to sleep with him!!!
    Yeah, did you year about Tammy and the McIntoshs’ son! No, not the eighteen year old, the *thirteen* year old! I’d say something about it, but he’s had a beard for almost a year now. And you know about that entire family, those kids always look like adults as soon as they hit twelve…”

    It reeks of hypocrisy. When sex isn’t involved, female teenagers (and even younger) are obviously years ahead of their male peers. But when there’s an erection in the room, the rules suddenly shift. A seventeen year old, married to the youngest {under 21, for argument’s sake} son of a good family and raised by another good family (good=rich, in this case) is a “victim”. A twelve year old boy from the wrong side of the tracks, purposely intoxicated or “convinced” to let his 30+ year old teacher or neighbour try his penis out for a ride, well, “He could get it up. So, obviously, nothing bad happened here. Erection equals manhood!”

    As far as the “stepmother” cases are concerned, here’s what happened.

    Case #1-13 year old boy is caught fondling 7 year old girl. The family (Nuyorican) beats 9 shades of shit out of him, his life being “saved” by his father’s second wife. Son gets admitted to the hospital, daughter gets sent to the police station to give her statements. Five minutes into the interview, the girl admits that “*Mami Maritza*” plays like that with them all of the time, and that she (the stepmother) told “Julio” to make her (the seven year old girl) “more like Mami, so that Mami and I could play with him the same way.” Father hears his daughter’s statement, realised that his wife is at the hospital with his son (because he and his brothers were too busy hitting him to listen, and she was the only one in the family with a “big enough heart” to “forgive him”), and calls his sons room. A nurse goes to the room and sees his stepmother crying at his side, but discovers semen on his sheets the next day. Mother was charged and later given probation, daughter received therapy (and is now the mother of two children who receive lots of attention), son received therapy, but slit his throat before he turned sixteen.

    Case #2- a former play partner of mine gave me the details, so this will be graphic. Her sister-in-law died of ovarian cancer at the age of forty. When she died, she mourned for her brother’s loss, but noted that his wife was a literal godsend (bluntly speaking, her already unattractive brother hadn’t aged well. But, her SIL was a beauty. This will be relevant later.) About three years later, her brother introduces the family to his new girlfriend (who is also a stunner. My friend’s joke:”Damn, my *hermano* must be packing like a bull to get these women!”. This will also be relevant later.)
    Two years after meeting, the brother gets engaged to his girlfriend. His son turns 13. Suddenly, the boy becomes less friendly, less interactive with his cousins (he was an only child) and starts spending all of his time at the computer. The family waves it off, because “everyone knows” that boys get in their moods, plus he’s probably figured out how his pollo works”. Two weeks before his father’s wedding, the boy hangs himself in his bedroom closet. “Mario” finds his son’s body, then reads the suicide note. Long story short, it was an apology to his father for sleeping with his wife-to-be. As far as the family could tell, his stepmother-to-be had started “grooming” him when he was ten years old (letting him watch her in the shower, telling him that he’d have to “take care” of her while his father was travelling for work, showing him how to find clean porn sites…) Culminating with their first intercourse on the day before her acceptance of engagement (because she wanted to make sure that she would have her needs met before cutting out other options.) After the first encounter, she told the son that she would be willing to take care of him and his father as long as the boy took care of “her needs” when “Papi” was away. So, for the next two years, he slept with his mother 1-2 times a week when his father had to work late, and would often be prevented from spending any time with his cousins on weekends (his father would usually travel out of state on weekends to inspect lower-level facilities, returning to NYC on Sunday afternoons.) During that time, he began to produce sperm. When he relayed that information to his molester, she told him that she was enjoying his father’s bichote as often as she was enjoying *his* bichote, and that any child she would make would be at least half his father’s, anyway. So, seeing that his father was happy again (three years widowed, now he has a woman on his arm that makes him *smile*, who wants to break their widowed parent’s heart?), he put up with her until he realised that the wedding was actually going to happen. Then, his father made the ironic mistake of telling him (the son), “Because you’re getting along so well with your stepmother, I decided to take a business trip. I wanted to be here for you, but you’re smiling and I’m smiling and this will make sure that we fan all go to Puerto Rico when I come back.” The trip? A six month fact-finding mission that would take him from New Jersey to New Mexico to *New Zealand*. The boy killed himself the next day.
    When the woman was confronted, she said this…
    “I saw the boy first, and he was so *pretty*. So I asked around and I find out that his mother was dead. Then I thought, ‘I wonder what his father looks like.’ So I met his father and his father is…his father. But ‘Mario’, he’s funnier than anything on TV and the man is good in bed. Nice chorizo. But ye works too much, and I have ‘needs’, so I play a little with the son. I figured, ‘A little teasing couldn’t hurt.’, then things got more serious. But, then I see that he’s becoming like his father every day and I tell myself that it wouldn’t be *too* bad if I try him out. And if I get pregnant, the baby will either look like my husband or be pretty and my husband will be grateful. But, if I had known that he was going to kill himself, I never would have done it.” As in the first case, she received probation for the molestation (because, in our country, “Did it fit? We must acquit!”, is the prevalent result in male rape cases. As long as he can get it up and push it in and he hasn’t been intoxicated, his assailant won’t be found guilty of anything more serious than low-level sexual assault.)

  4. The Bibo:
    “Child sexual abuse (CSA) is common, and evidence suggests that 5%–10% of boys and girls experience severe abuse involving sexual penetration.1:”

    That’s from the study you linked to. I urge you to run some numbers and use some common sense. What they are claiming is that 5 to 10 percent of children (though they are probably using 17 or below as their definition, its even more ludicrous if they are sticking to pre-teens) are raped, either by an adult or another child. So no, I’m not crediting that study much at all for prevalence of anything. Once again, you have to ask yourself: Do you believe that 5 to 10 percent of all people 17 or below are raped?

    In addition, you did what so many advocates do which is latch onto the first study you could find that seemed to support your view, and add a bunch of your own assumptions based on its truth. In addition, my numbers are for the US and I am willing to bet many of the definitions of sexual abuse are different, thus leading to problems when assessing numbers.

  5. I mean, HECK, I was reading this just today:
    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/any-innocent-can-go2-jail4-childporn-carlos-alfredo-simon-timmermann/comment-page-1#comment-419274

    And just what was the prosecution up to? Why, they were not only relying on the testimony of a border guard as to how the tape was “obviously ” child porn, but also an actual MD misused the so-called “Tanner scale” to give expert testimony for the prosecution:
    http://blog.simplejustice.us/2010/04/24/for-a-good-time-call-little-lupe.aspx?ref=rss
    And yet twelve years earlier the man who invented that scale was complaining of its misuse:
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/102/6/1494.1

    Had this guy been convicted it would have been another statistic counted for sex crimes involving children. Luckily for him, this pornstar decided to save his ass even though he didn’t pay her a red cent.

  6. I should also add that you are adding things up using all 33 years of Mamu’s life, but clearly he was in no position to “know” about any of these things until he was 10, and more likely 15, so you really have to subtract 10 or 15 from 33 and run your numbers again. I’m being asked to believe that since he was 15 (or more likely 20) he’s run into 7 cases of male suicide, ALL caused by female sex offenders (amazing considering the many other things that cause males to kill themselves including divorce, but he’s never met any of THOSE men) in one way or the other. His second example, for instance, is second-hand information , which leads it to be even less likely to be true.

    But your real problem is even assuming all your numbers are right -which I don’t – of the roughly 7 boys who would commit suicide given population cohort size, he knows them ALL -directly or indirectly. Talk about winning a reverse lottery!

  7. @Clarence

    Just to be clear, three of the seven cases occurred in New York City. Two of them took place in Louisiana, one of them in Minnesota and one in Michigan. The first case, the boy was one of the “big kids” in my neighbourhood (and yeah, it sticks in your memory when one of your childhood friends cuts his throat open), the last one took place in June of this year. It’s the reason why those cases are closest to my heart, I was well acquainted with both of the kids. The other cases were essentially “shop talk”, EMTs comparing their worst cases with cops (or in our situation, combat medics and security forces.)

  8. “Bieber’s accuser was Mariah Yeater, and the “event in question” that she made up supposedly happened in August 2010 when Beiber would have been 16 (legal in some states) and she, 19 or even possibly, 18 (she’s 20 in 2012 and Beiber is 18, but I don’t know her birthdate). Thus your insinuation that the false accusation, if true, was “child rape” is rather disgusting. It wouldn’t be so in my state, for one.”

    Too bad if you are disgusted. That woman, that no-name liar, disgusts me. So we’re even.

    Bieber was 16 at the time. Legal in some states? – the only state that matters is the one they were in. In most he is still a minor unable to consent. What her age was is immaterial in most states – not all, but most. And in those states that makes her a rapist, regardless of her age. What the law is in Maryland is completely irrelevant unless she fucked him in Maryland.

    I am puzzled at your zeal to defend her. Either she is lying filth or she is rapist filth.

    As to the larger question of the explicit sanction society gives women to rape boys, there have been numerous cases where boys raped while they were minors have had to pay child support to their rapists, who in another travesty, are allowd to keep the children that result from these rapes. That speaks to a general attitude of indifference in the legal system specifically and the society that it serves.

  9. Gingko:
    As was proven by the genetic tests, she is lying filth.
    As for the rest, I look forward to throwing even more 18 years in jail for having sex with their 14 to 17 year old girlfriends/boyfriends.

    Yeah, that’s a pretty disgusting attitude you have there. Luckily most states also have some kind of “Romeo and Juliet” law that would protect teens within a few years of age of each other from going through this crap. And if you need to find “victims” of “child sexual abuse” who are within 2 or 3 years of their “abusers” in order to try to push for more help for male victims of sexual abuse, I feel sorry for you and for any teen that comes near you.

  10. By the way:
    Re: Child support being paid by minor males –
    I was probably the one who tipped you off to that because I kept linking to that Child Support Guidelines piece when I first joined Feminist Critics nearly 6 years ago.

    That our laws are fucked up is no reason to screw up more teens and early 20-somethings lives. Teens and young adults within 1 to 7 years of age of each other have been experimenting with sexuality with each other in all societies everywhere over all periods of time.

  11. MaMu:
    Even assuming that all the EMT talk wasn’t as exaggerated as “locker room talk” often is, the fact is EMT’s are far more likely than people in the general population (just as are cops Doctors, social workers and sexual assault counselors) to run into people who commit suicide for various reasons, though I find it hard to believe that no one mentioned any other reasons for the suicides. The one suicide I am personally aware of was a male crossdresser who suffered because of societal disapproval which led to a drug habit, and its hard to disambiguate cause and effect as to which one was more responsible: his unpopularity since he had openly “come out” or his drug habit.

  12. I gotta say I do find it disgusting to call someone a rapist when:
    A. The sex was not forced and was wanted by both parties
    and
    B. The “legal age of consent” varies by country and state, so that a “rapist” in one state is not a criminal at all in another.

    So no, I don’t consider statuatory rapists to be “real rapists” when consent is not in question and their ages are within 5 years of each other OR the younger partner is 15 or 16 and above regardless of the age of the older partner.

  13. @Mamu, holy crap, it’s just fucking amazing that a rapist would say something like that after her victim committed suicide and not get put away for a very, very long time. Can you imagine if the genders were flipped? “The little girl was so pretty, so I agreed to marry her mother in order to fuck the child. I had my needs, you know?”

    @Clarence,

    Rape: It doesn’t really matter what you think about the age of consent; that’s certainly up for debate, as the various laws you can point to would attest. What matters is that those laws aren’t applied with the same righteous fervor when the victim is male.

    Suicide: I’m 32 and I think I’ve been around a dozen male suicides in my life, discovered the bodies myself in some cases, carried their caskets in others, and watched them do it at times. By the time I was 6 I had seen a man jump into a bonfire, jump off a bridge, and drive his car into a brick wall. Yes, I was under 10 and I remember them through a child’s eyes, but trust me I still remember. I know now what was going on then – martial law under Communism, but my memories of it are mixed up with images of flying kites and preschool. Then there was this kid who wore a NASA space camp jumpsuit to school and told my 5th grade teacher that he hated me because I got better grades and girls liked me – he killed himself after high school. The first Marine who reported to me in combat, as well as the last Marine who I reported to in combat, both killed themselves. I’m really not surprised when someone says they’ve known 7 suicides of a certain kind. If you are really involved in a community of people who are at risk, then you won’t just see one or two, you’ll see a steady stream of it.

  14. Dungone:
    I agree with you that, for the most part, the laws aren’t evenly applied between the sexes though I think its somewhat better than 10 years ago, or 15 when I first started exploring this stuff. So yes, female sex offenders usually get lesser sentences than an equivalent male counterpart, and that is wrong even if sometimes I don’t believe there should be punishment at all. Equal protection should make such disparate treatment impossible in the US, but sadly , it often doesn’t.

    I disagree with you, however, about “suicides of a certain kind”, at least when it comes to MaMu. You are in the military, and when you were a child, you were in an entirely different country. The suicides you saw were for all different sorts of reasons when your whole life is taken into account though it is understandable there’d be more similarities when one is in the military. However, in regards to MaMu I can’t think of a single profession in society where one is likely to ONLY see male suicides (even the military has some female ones) let alone only male suicides for one particular reason.

  15. @Clarence, actually the suicides I saw as a child also were all of a certain kind. Had I grown up in that environment past age 6, I would have kept seeing more of that very exact kind. The only reason I saw suicides of different types over time was because I changed the environment in which I existed. Oppression by a foreign government when I was a child, geeky/nerdy bullying when I was in the “star” classes in grade school, and of course military suicide. If Mamu had stayed in a consistent environment long enough, he would likely see repeats of the same circumstances. That is my experience.

    Mamu never actually said that he ONLY ever saw male victims of female abusers commit suicide, for the record. His point was that it’s just as damaging when it happens to boys as it is to girls, except that there is less help available to male victims of female sexual abuse.

  16. @MaMu1977:

    Adding insult to injury, when feminists compare girls to boys, you hear this boilerplate response:

    I’ve come to call most of these things “convenient stupidity/intelligence,” and they’re extremely common in feminist arguments about both boys and girls (I’ve seen this from other groups as well, though just not nearly as often). The particular excuses vary with individual situations, but they always follow the same line: the person/group in question is always exactly as smart or as stupid as they need to be for the arguer to prove whatever point he or she is trying to make.

  17. I agree with you that, for the most part, the laws aren’t evenly applied between the sexes though I think its somewhat better than 10 years ago, or 15 when I first started exploring this stuff. So yes, female sex offenders usually get lesser sentences than an equivalent male counterpart, and that is wrong even if sometimes I don’t believe there should be punishment at all. Equal protection should make such disparate treatment impossible in the US, but sadly , it often doesn’t.

    My part of the world – Australia – is a bit different. They don’t do “sentences” for rapist women here. They are, with the rule proving one exception, always suspended. There is also a woman in US federal prison right now for a staturory rape committed in my town. My state would rather leave the protection of her own sons to a foreign jurisdiction.

    Another US woman traveled to Aus a little earlier to consumate her grooming of a Perth boy. She was smarter. She raced him off to a motel room on his sixteeenth birthday having groomed him from age fourteen. Our media treated it as a cutesy internet romance. One of our womens’ magazines – New Idea – funded her fifteen month stay in Aus and published a series of cloying articles. Even our respected Age paper ran the headline “Schoolboy Lover”.

    THAT woman – who hails from California – breached US federal laws when she engaged in sex with an individual below the age of consent in HER home jurisdiction. I believe this to be eighteen. She also breached internet grooming laws. She did so with the full glare of publicity in my country. She should, like the woman who came to my town, be in jail.

  18. Sorry, read Victoria, Australia. The sentencing I reference is the Victorian situation. Our laws were amended in the late nineties in ways which permitted charging and conviction of female abusers/rapists of males. Prior to that my experience as a seven and eight year old was effectively legal.

  19. Clarence, let’s say you are correct, and the 5-10% rate for underage sex abuse is exaggerated in that study. Your proof? None.

    Even if you are correct about some exaggeration, my number crunch did not use that number, and still stands.

    Now, you later claim that Mamu memories before age 10 are suspect. I remember 2 rape-murders of preteen girls that occurred in my home county of under 40,000 souls from when I was 7 years old. Heck, I remember where I was when I heard of the assassination of JFK when I was 4 years old. Early memories of traumatic events persist.

  20. OT: anyone watch the presidential debates last night? Anyone see the young woman asking (I’m paraphrasing) “What are you going to do about workplace equality, specifically, that women make 72% of what men make?” Made me rage for a sec, since the question ignores so, so, so much about why that gap exists. And it implies that women who work at the same job, will make 72% of what men make, when other factors are controlled.

    Back on topic,

    Clarence, obviously, there are some cases where statutory rape is just as bad as forcible rape, and there are some cases where it isn’t. And I know someone who has to register as a sex offender because the father of the girl (16) found out she was having (consensual, mutually enjoyable) sex (gasp, swoon) with her boyfriend (19) and decided he needed to “protect” his “little girl”. But obviously, there have been instances brought up in this thread where the stat-rape was severely damaging. So please don’t go so far as to dismiss what a poster here says. I know it is standard operating procedure on the internet to cry sauce when someone makes a claim like what Mamu made. But this isn’t the internet. Its Genderratic, and I think we know Mamu well enough to take his word for it when he says he knows of 7 cases where boys or men killed themselves due to female sexual predation.

    Furthermore, as dungone said, the issue is not so much whether or not statutory rape is “real rape” but whether or not the law is applied equally to men and women, which, of course, it is not. It never is, but this is just the area where there is the most gap, since this gets at the crux of the issue, which is gender and sex.

  21. Carence, let’s take this in pieces.

    “I gotta say I do find it disgusting to call someone a rapist when:
    A. The sex was not forced and was wanted by both parties
    and”

    Minors can’t give consent. Period. That’s part of the definition of a minor.

    “B. The “legal age of consent” varies by country and state, so that a “rapist” in one state is not a criminal at all in another.”

    Ignorance of the law is no defense.

    “So no, I don’t consider statuatory rapists to be “real rapists” when consent is not in question and their ages are within 5 years of each other”

    Your personal opinion is not dispositive in this matter.

    “OR the younger partner is 15 or 16 and above regardless of the age of the older partner.”

    All that said, I agree with you on Romeo and Juliet laws. I don’t see any sense or decency in ruining some young person’s life over a high school fling.

    So I was wondering what it ws about the Bieber thing that i found so repugnant. well for one thing it was no high school fling. That woman went after Bieber because of his fame. She was a starfucker. That disgusts me. The whole cult of celebtrity is despicable and this is probably the most despicable aspect of it.

  22. “Sorry, read Victoria, Australia. The sentencing I reference is the Victorian situation. ”

    Gwallan, I do remember that there is a state of Victoria; I was just making a little pun on the Victorianism of the legal regime that facilitated your rapes.

    ES, yeah, I saw that. Neither candidate or side of the debate is ready to be honest about that stuff.

  23. That woman went after Bieber because of his fame. She was a starfucker. That disgusts me. The whole cult of celebtrity is despicable and this is probably the most despicable aspect of it.

    For me, the rent-seeking harassment dispels any notion of this having been a romantic relationship that should be covered by a Romeo and Juliet clause. Statutory rape it was.

    Re: the debate.

    Unfortunately, 51% of the population believes the wage gap myth as if it were gospel and both of these candidates need the votes to win. It’s no different to me than hearing both of the candidates praising the free enterprise system and agreeing with one another that the government doesn’t create jobs, even though both of them are promising to do just that. It’s no different than politicians who refuse to get rid of references to god from our money and pledge of allegiance, even though it’s unconstitutional.

    The real challenge isn’t to go after the politicians, but to go after the voting blocs. In the meantime, vote based on the overall policies you support and ignore the empty rhetoric aimed at non-thinking idiots.

  24. gwallan:
    Thanks for the information on how laws are applied in Australia. Of course they currently have a feminist PM so why am I not surprised?

  25. Well, I guess the rage moment really occurred because here is a pudwag, looking for the one thing that has been holding her back in her life, and she comes to a wage gap. Despite the fact that unmarried, childless women under 30 get paid more than unmarried, childless men under 30. And this is exactly how stereotypes, bad data, misconceptions become policies, laws and discriminatory practices, i.e. child custody, rape enforcement (or even data collection), etc. etc. We need to get someone to stand up and say, “what are you going to do about workplace inequality, specifically, the overtime gap, the death gap, and the time off gap?”

    But of course, since feminism controls the discourse on gender issues, our voices don’t matter. Maybe when I’m a grandpa, they will.

  26. Well, I guess the rage moment really occurred because here is a pudwag, looking for the one thing that has been holding her back in her life, and she comes to a wage gap.

    Well, it’s kind of pathetic really. Passive, complacent people are hardly ever happy about anything in life. This woman probably enjoys a vastly superior lifestyle from that of her husband, better health, far more legal rights and protections, and far less legal obligations. But she can’t be happy. She’ll spend the rest of her life filled with self doubt, wondering what it is that’s really holding her back. And she’ll conclude that it’s anything but her own femininity, since that’s right and just, everything that’s good about the world, whereas men are just broken women, poisoned by testosterone, or whatever.

  27. Information is very easy to look up:
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2011/11/justin-bieber-takes-dna-paternity-test-according-to-report/

    “Mariah Yeater had initially filed a paternity suit against Bieber but abruptly withdrew it last week. She has since hired new legal representation and reportedly wants to settle out of court.

    Bieber has steadfastly denied Yeater’s allegations, saying the story was “completely made up” and that he has never met her.”

    He claimed he had never had sex with her. It’s impossible to be a rapist or statuatory rapist if you never have sex with someone.

    Girlfriend is all kind of messed up, and not only claimed that a former boyfriend was also the father, but she had a court case scheduled for allegedly slapping that boyfriend. In short, this was a bad example for Gingko to use and just shows how sloppy even normally decent people can be with facts when something made the news at one time or another.

  28. Gingko:
    “1. Minors can’t give consent. Period. That’s part of the definition of a minor.”
    Which varies from place to place. Congrats on making people “rapists” depending simply on where they live in the civilized world ( because its not just third world shitholes that have lower ages of consent than the magic 18). Kind of debases the meaning of the word.
    “2. Ignorance of the law is no defense”
    Hell, sometimes ignorance of TRUE AGE is no defense as stat rape is a “strict liability” crime in the US. I wasn’t aware you were “cool” with these laws, Gingko. I also wasn’t aware that children and teens ( or “children” if you view every adolescent below the magical 18 as being a child) were supposed to be lawyers. Hell, despite 15 years and the reading of dozens of studies and posts (on rape and SH and suicide) alone (also read quite widely on civil and gun rights and financial laws) and even going to places like The Peoples Law blog and “educating” myself, I’m fully aware there are literally hundreds if not thousands of laws in the Federal Code alone that I’m not cognizant of. Pretty nice system we got here, hmm? Make so many laws and have these laws described in and apply to so many different places that no-one can possibly know them all and then bleat “ignorance of the law is no excusej”. Disgusting.

    As for the rest, well, “groupies” are one of the prices one pays for fame, and she seems delusional or greedy, but she almost certainly didn’t have sex with Beiber.

  29. I’m going to describe why I have had the reaction that I do to this post.
    But it will be a rather long post.
    So for now, lets just say its good to be skeptical of any claims of widespread rape being undetected, as it was to be skeptical of the Daycare Rape panic of the 1980’s and early 1990’s.

  30. He claimed he had never had sex with her. It’s impossible to be a rapist or statuatory rapist if you never have sex with someone.

    It really, seriously, does not matter. She was doing nothing short of yelling out loud, “I RAPED HIM: GIVE ME A PRIZE!”

  31. And by the way:
    We all agree that men and women should be treated the same when it comes to the applications and penalties of these laws.

  32. Dungone:
    Depending on where she allegedly had sex with him and where she lived and he lived and a whole bunch of other legal bullshit I’m not willing to go into or look into.
    All I know is that in Maryland 19 or 18 and 16 is perfectly fine, and I’m perfectly fine with that as I just view it as two teens having sex. Scuse me while I yawn.

  33. Depending on where she allegedly had sex with him and where she lived and he lived and a whole bunch of other legal bullshit I’m not willing to go into or look into.

    Nope. She did it where it counted. Were she a male, she would be on a sex offenders’ registry by now.

  34. “And she’ll conclude that it’s anything but her own femininity, since that’s right and just, everything that’s good about the world, whereas men are just broken women, poisoned by testosterone, or whatever.”

    As true as that latter part is ^_^… I don’t think it’s taking a load off that leads to expressed unhappiness, but rather, lack of perspective. Every unidirectional feminist should have to take an economics course or two and learn about trade-offs. I am lazy and I’m happy with that. I also understand I don’t operate in a vacuum, and that different incentives can (and have) made me less lazy.

    Also, next time someone brings up the pay gap, ask them: If MRAs got their way with family court reform, and more men had sole custody, do you really think the pay gap would be as high?

  35. “1. Minors can’t give consent. Period. That’s part of the definition of a minor.”
    Which varies from place to place. Congrats on making people “rapists” depending simply on where they live in the civilized world ( because its not just third world shitholes that have lower ages of consent than the magic 18). Kind of debases the meaning of the word.”

    That doesn’t work when you are talking about the crime of rape. Jurisdictions set their own definition so crimes all the time. Rape in the UK is not the same as in California, as one example.

    Clarence, I think I remember the situation that motivates your caution about rape charges. I approve of that cuation, for what that’s worth.

    Now if you are speaking of rape as some Platonic ideal object, then of course having it differ depending on place is unaccpetable.

    If instead you are speaking of rape as a cultural object, a lexical item as defined by observable language behavior, then no, there is no Anglsophere -wide agreeminet on what is and isn’t rape, anyomer than there is on a huge percentage of words in the language. That’s just how language works.

  36. I don’t think it’s taking a load off that leads to expressed unhappiness, but rather, lack of perspective.

    The way I look at it, Valerie, is that doing something yourself is far more rewarding than having it handed to you. A sense of accomplishment is incredibly important for any sort of long-term happiness, whether it’s at work or in a relationship. People who just wait for something to land in their lap, they’ll not only feel more entitled to what they’ve been given, but they’ll also have to struggle against that profound sense of having settled on something less than they deserved.

    Also, next time someone brings up the pay gap, ask them: If MRAs got their way with family court reform, and more men had sole custody, do you really think the pay gap would be as high?

    Gloria Steinem certainly seems to agree. She has said that women will never “have it all” until men get an equal opportunity to raise children.

  37. @Clarence

    1. At no point in any of my posts did I say that the only source/cause of male suicide was the actions of women. During a decade in the military, I knew (and knew of) a few dozen AD members who committed suicide for a variety of reasons (most of which involves multiple deployments or money issues, not women.)

    2. Statuotory is statuotory, period. When you live in a country in which men can become “paedophiles” for a years’ difference in age (even with Romeo and Juliet laws) and women receive a slap on the wrist as long as they don’t get the kid drunk or have a legally enforced power differential over the child (and in those cases, they get slapped on both wrists), that’s hypocrisy. The fact that the women in both of my cases received probation (on the charge of “contributing to the delinquency of a minor, as the more severe charges were dropped) was deplorable.

    Now, to continue: as other people were able to infer, my issue with the disparity in concern levels re: minor male/adult female relationships is based on the fact that any type of damage (physical, emotional, etc.), that has been documented as occurring in these scenarios is either minimised or flat out ignored. Clarence, an erstwhile ally with plenty of statistics, has evinced plenty of shock in this thread that I was able to encounter 7 cases of suicide in 23 years that directly involved a predatory female and an underage male (and double shock at the idea of an EMT, a person whose job entailed being a first responder, seeing 5 cases in 10 years.) If that isn’t an example of erasure, I don’t know what is.

    And, on top of that, statistics show that a majority of violent male rape offenders were molested as children (with the gender divide landing firmly on the side of female aggressors.) Statistics show that the most accurate indicator for flagrant promiscuity in adults is a lower age of loss of virginity (regardless of the gender of the promiscuous person, regardless of the gender of the initiator.) I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and my personal experiences match those statistics. All of the guys I’ve known who swore by the idea of “holding her down, until she gives up” or “not giving her a choice, because you know that women can’t make up their minds”, were guys who had “got lucky” as kids (in most of those cases, it was your standard for the area 15-21 year old girl who ran into an 11-14 year old boy on the block. Which he bragged and boasted about until they broke up…) For most of these cases, the girls would have been protected by Romeo and Juliet laws, but that means nothing to the *future* women that those men encountered. That means nothing to the “last call” barflies and beer-goggles women who find themselves as a guy’s newest fling because the guy was touched by his babysitter over a 2-year span and now his pride won’t let him leave the club without a partner. And it definitely won’t make a woman who’s been involved in an 8-year relationship feel any better about the fact that his main reason for not committing is because he loves her, but is “in love” with (the idea of) his mother’s best friend, who showed him the ropes when he was 14 and she was 38.

    I know that the majority of molesters are men (at least, the majority of “reported” molesters.) That information does nothing to reduce the damage that women can cause when they decide to cross the age barrier, it just doesn’t. And using the, “Yeah, it happens, but it happens so rarely that it doesn’t make sense to pay attention to it”, excuse on this site (which has plenty of regular male posters who can attest to the damage caused by those interactions) is callous.

  38. MaMu:
    After complaining I put words in your mouth, you proceed to erase mine.
    You should note that I specifically said it was more probable for an EMT to run into all sorts of fucked up situations than a normal person. Same a Doctor, same a psychologist, same a cop.
    Now if you never said that the only cases of suicide you saw seemed to be directly related to female-male sexual abuse that seems to be what the post above implies and I note you didn’t deny it when I first started voicing my concerns.
    An EMT who only sees suicides that involved female-sexual abuse and none for any other reason? Damn straight I’d be incredulous just as I would be if you were a mere private citizen who claimed the same, because the odds against both things are very long. I’m glad to see you’ve corrected the record.

    Now if you want to argue minimization, well you can understand that I will agree with you about certain cases and disagree about others. I will gladly “minimize” most teenage/teenage consensual sex, for instance. However, I will agree with you that whenever something is defined as a crime both men and women should be given equal protection under the law against that crime.

  39. @Gingko

    And that is in and of itself a big problem: the nebulousness of “rape”. Use a “paedo-tracker” in almost any rural area of the country and you’ll see that the lion’s share of the “paedos” are young (19-24) men with “almost legal” (14-17) women. When I lived in the Midwest, the majority of the “rapists” in Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Nebraska, Wisconsin and Kansas were college students who hooked up with high school girls at college parties. It’s become such a trend that people (in more rural areas) don’t even take it seriously anymore. Guys who would have looked twice at a younger-looking woman (in the past), just go ahead and get the notch because they know *plenty* of high school aged guys (18-19) who were added to the pervert list for dating “girls” (15-17). And, hypocrisy being what it is, there have been more than a few news articles about Midwestern “wivesandmothers” who get impregnated by 13-16 year old boys (yet never get added to the roster. Who’s more of a threat of recidivism, the 19 year old high school senior who bought a ring for his 16 year POF high school girlfriend, or the 35 year old single mother who’s caught riding a 14 year old boy in her car, then is busted with pictures of *other* teenaged boys on her smartphone?)

  40. What I find ironic is that even as the potential consequences of sex -such as pregnancy and disease – have been brought more or less under the control of the participants in the act and the larger society as a whole via such things as birth control, antibiotics, and abortion, the amount of types of sexual intercourse, sexual discourse (SH law, laws against teens and tweens “sexting” , laws against fucking drawings and paintings of potentially underage and/or bdsm acts or other “perversions”) and the ages of the partners involved have been more and more legally constricted.

  41. @Clarence

    Apology received and returned.

    Now, here’s another problem that I’ve had with the definition of rape; rape by “coercion”, to be specific.

    Rape by coercion, in its initial incarnation, was supposed to apply to weapons cases (as in cases in which the aggressor used the threat of lethal force to gain consent) or blackmail (as in, victim gets caught committing a crime, witness uses the threat of disclosure to gain consent). However, if you visit almost any feminism-themed website and *read* the most common accounts of “rape by coercion”, they usually read like this:
    “So, he was poking me in the back with his thing, then he told me that he’d stop if I let him do it, so I did it. Was I raped?”
    “I totally got drunk at this bar and I got into this blowjob contest in the bathroom, then the guy that we were blowing started talking about us going back to his place and he had weed. So we kinda did, but I’d been drinking then I got high and I don’t remember actually saying yes. Was I raped?”
    “So, I got caught stealing the “exchange for new bills from the bank” money from the safe at my first job. Bobby, the guy who caught me, promised not to tell anyone if I gave him some ‘hand-action’. So, we used to meet up on Sunday and I’d jack him off for an hour. It’s been fifteen years since we had our little arrangement. Was my hand raped?”

    And the feminist posters will make it abundantly clear that yes, her hand was raped. Yes, the young woman who willingly went home with a stranger (who she’d been blowing in a public place) because of the offer of weed was raped. Yes, if your boyfriend poked you in the back with his penis a couple of times and you just rolled over and let him get on top, you were raped. Because any sexual interaction that wasn’t initiated by the woman with “enthusiastic consent” is (in more and more feminist circles), considere
    pd rape.

    But, flip the genders around and the letter of the law becomes the limit.
    “So, like, my girlfriend was wondering why we hadn’t done it yet? And when I told her that I wanted it to be special, she said, ‘We’re here, in a quiet room, what else do we need?’ Then, when I said that I’d rather do it on a bed instead of an air mattress, she said that I must be some kind of faggot. And after about half an hour of her calling me gay and changing her status on Facebook, we did it in her parents garage. Right underneath her father’s weight lifting set, beside his collection of guns… Was that rape?”
    “Last week, I got drunk at the office party. I was flirting with Camille when I was just tipsy, but I woke up beside Natasha. I don’t even remember *talking* to Natasha, but I must have…”
    “I made E-4 in a year. But I got a new supervisor and she was hitting on me hardcore and I shut it down. Then I couldn’t even get scheduled for promotion for four years. So I finally slept with her and I got sent up for promotion. Is that fair?

    Tell a story like this on a Feministe, I mean feminist website and none of the posters will see anything *illegal* about *those* stories, desire the fact that they’re genderflips of male aggressor/female compliant sexual encounters. The guy who has sex so that he won’t be faux-“outed” as gay=the girl who gets whined and cajoled into sex because “that’s what boyfriends and girlfriends do”. The guy who remembers flirting with one girl and wakes up beside another girl, and the guy who has sex to get promoted, they don’t even need analogues. This site introduced me to the Crunk Feminist Collective story about the woman who pitched a fit about being turned down by a guy. If the genders were swapped, none of the feminists on the thread would have co-signed on a guy feeling cheated by a girl who was willing to have phone sex (but not willing to go “all the way”.) Cries of “Privilege!” and “Entitlement!”, would have drowned out any of his defenders. But, as has been said by feminism detractors as varied as Camille Paglia, Bill Maher and Tom Leykis, “With feminists, it’s only bad if a *man*does it. When a woman does it, no matter how negative the action or response, it *must be good*.” That way does madness lie.

  42. Jezebel is the MOST popular feminist site?
    I’ll have to look that up to verify.
    I mean, Jesus Christ, they sometimes make Feministe look good, and our old “pal” Ozymandias recently took them to the woodshed for their blatant doublestandards concerning sexual assault and the “enthusiastic consent” philosophy. Ozy does good a few percent of the time, which, sadly, is more than can be said for most self-professed blogfeminists.

  43. MaMu:
    I cosign everything you’ve said in your last two posts. I’ve long been aware of this kind of thing which is one of the reasons why I am so skeptical of any hyperbolic statements concerning sexual assault incidence – because I know how often the books are cooked. And every freaking year I have to deal with the same old lies (such as the 15/16 rapes are never prosecuted, that every large sporting event brings in tons of trafficked women *sometimes the claim is CHILDREN to make it even more scandalous*, hell some people even believe the myth about superbowl violence) sometimes even by well-meaning people and organizations (RANN does the 15/16 thing, though they also work with male survivors and most of their stats are more carefully collected then in most other similar organizations) who have been exposed to them.

    Maybe I’m not as clear as I should have been, so I’ll say this – in order to demonize male sexuality and men in general, feminists have long played fast and loose with statistics (some of which they even create themselves via surveys which are USUALLY crappily constructed) usually by redefinitions of commonly understood terms or via selective reading of the legal definitions of things. That 18 to 20 year old male shy virgin with the 14 or 15 year old “hot to trot” (meaning more sexually experienced than normal for a girl her age) girlfriend? A horrid sexual predator rapist according to them, just another statistic as to how womyn are oppressed. Treated rhetorically as exactly the same as a violent stranger rapist who rapes the “bitches” because he hates his mother. It’s something I can’t let them get away with, and I’d rather we don’t start down the same path.

  44. Ginkgo said…
    Gwallan, I do remember that there is a state of Victoria; I was just making a little pun on the Victorianism of the legal regime that facilitated your rapes.

    Just trying to clarify actually. There is some state to state variation across the country. Wasn’t referring back to the prior comment or having a go at you.

    Actually Bendigo where I live was the wealthiest city in the world in the mid nineteenth century. We have some very grand Victorian architecture to remind us. Meanwhile any bloke wanting Labor pre-selection for Victorian parliament should brush up on his bible studies. Victorian enough for you? Doesn’t matter for female candidates. Women have been exempted from the Victorian era strictures. A Labor government probably issued that exemption – permission slips to break the state’s own equality laws – alongside the ones they gave all the womens’ gyms.

    Clarence said…
    Thanks for the information on how laws are applied in Australia. Of course they currently have a feminist PM so why am I not surprised?

    Notwithstanding Gillard’s mysoginy rant last week she’s probably the least feminist of the Labor caucus women. She’s actually the sort of woman who would rather have a beer with the blokes than a wine with the girls. Others, such as Kate Ellis, are far more virulent. Gillard has been refusing to go down this road for a long time and, until that speech, had impressed me in that stubbornness. I believe it to be an act of desperation actually. It may also be the highest level overt damselling to have ever occurred. I doubt this will benefit women in politics, or with political aspirations, in the long run.

    Depending on where she allegedly had sex with him and where she lived and he lived and a whole bunch of other legal bullshit I’m not willing to go into or look into.
    All I know is that in Maryland 19 or 18 and 16 is perfectly fine, and I’m perfectly fine with that as I just view it as two teens having sex. Scuse me while I yawn.

    Unfortunate consequence of necessary limits. There must be a boundary somewhere. Through most of Australia it’s sixteen which I consider rational and reasonable.

    re Beiber the thing I found notable had less to do with the possible rape itself but, rather, the cavalier attitude of the young woman concerned. I referenced womens’ magazines above. In Aus all of them have run “schoolboy lover” type articles which invariably do not censure the woman involved in any way. Oprah Winfrey has done the same. These are media sources with huge distribution which are successful because they give their audiences what they want. Hundreds of thousands of New Idea readers funded that Californian woman’s stay in their – and my – country. Dare I suggest those readers and viewers are virtually all women.

    The broader atmosphere in our communities is actually very permissive of these circumstances. The woman pursuing Beiber had every reason to expect that outing herself in that way, regardless of veracity, was not going to cause her any real difficulty.

    Valerie Keefe said…
    poisoned by testosterone, or whatever.

    As true as that latter part is ^_^

    Oh, dear.

    MaMu1977 said…
    I know that the majority of molesters are men (at least, the majority of “reported” molesters.)

    I have developed a firm belief over a long time and a lot of reading that women commit about a quarter of the acts of child sexual abuse. Studies in my state(Lee Fitzroy in the late nineties and Rebecca Deering in 2004) from the past decade or so reflect this. Male perps are more inclined to have multiple victims which hints at women being a larger proportion of the perpetrators than that quarter might suggest.

    Environments can be a factor too. It seems there are very nearly as many boys abused as girls. Girls are mostly abused by men. Boys are as likely to be abused by either sex. In the home environment girls are at more risk than boys. Outside the home it’s actually boys. Consider that most of the institutional abuse coming to light involves male victims.

    There are environmental factors with perpetrators as well. A far higher proportion of female perps than male are in teaching roles in the commision of their abuse. The most likely scenario in a school involves a woman and a boy and by a significant margin. The much high proportion of teachers among female perps comes as a consequence of broader scrutiny which isn’t quite looking in the right direction. It, thus, becomes an enabler.

    Now, here’s another problem that I’ve had with the definition of rape; rape by “coercion”, to be specific.

    I define rape by that means actually. Coercion need not be physical but will always be present. I do not trust “consent” particularly given the politicisation of it’s meaning. Coercion/control is also the basis for many of the long term issues victims can struggle with.

  45. Valerie Keefe said…
    poisoned by testosterone, or whatever.

    As true as that latter part is ^_^

    Oh, dear.

    Is that what she meant? I hope not.

  46. Is that what she meant? I hope not.

    Valerie is trans. Her problems with testosterone are personal, not political.

    It’s the equivalent of an ex-jew who has converted saying that he has a final solution for the jewish problem. Tasteless, but not as hateful as it seems on first glance.

  47. Uh, I thought she was referring to the entire passage she quoted as “the last part”, since it was the last part of what I said. She should clear up what she is referring to. She should also be well aware of the history of and negative connotations associated with testosterone and men, so as to not alienate herself from the people with whom she is talking to. Several people here are military veterans and experienced the stigma against masculinity from an extreme perspective, myself included, so to use the (already bad) Jew analogy, it’d be like telling a Holocaust survivor about that final solution.

  48. To me, the political becomes very personal when somebody says things like that. My brain goes straight back to being fed lines about how testosterone is poison, men being diseased and damaged women, how men do not possess the capacities for empathy or compassion or love or ethics, or how men do not possess the intellect of women.

    I usually end up either self-harming, fantasizing about gendercide, or just wishing for some way to destroy the taint of having been born a cis male, even though I know that even if I was able to do so, it would change nothing, my brain was ruined by testosterone even before I was born. Then I usually just wish I was dead.

    Which is the state I find myself in now. I should probably stop reading gender websites.

  49. I am sorry, I know that Valerie is trans and that her statements about testosterone poisoning should be read in that light. I unfortunately have trouble controlling whether I get screwed in the head when I read about testosterone poisoning. I suppose it is because I am a cis man and I do not like reading things that force me to face how my kind is a hegemonic oppressor that is actually diseased and poisoned by our very hormone systems.

  50. @RocketFrog, I don’t think she woke up yet, so let’s let her clarify what she meant first. I agree with you, though. I don’t think that anybody would be referring to a hormone imbalance of any sort as “poison” if not for the very anti-male bigotry that resulted in the original coinage of the term and the associated memes. Calling testosterone a poison is no different than calling water a poison – try drinking a couple of gallons of distilled water and see what happens. It’s unfortunate for trans people who then internalize this bigotry as if they were really being poisoned, when it’s just an imbalance. Nobody talks about “poison” when menopausal women get hormone replacement therapy and no one talks about them in terms of being genetically damaged women on their way to an evolutionary dead end, yet that’s what often gets said about men.

  51. But people do talk about poisoning when it comes to coerced endocrine treatment, either against lgbt people, intersex people, or athletes.

    For example, Alan Turing faced estrogen poisoning, which probably led to his death.

  52. Clarence,

    “and the ages of the partners involved have been more and more legally constricted.”

    It’s the ongoing infantilization of women, concurrent with increased prerogatives for women. It has to do with the complete loss of senamntic distinction between “girl” and “woman” as actaully used in the language. It has to do with allowing females all the prerogatives of adults but granting them all the protections of children.

    My great-great-grandfather married my great-great-grandmother when he was 44 and she was 16. No one considered him a pervert in 1860 or whenever that was. By law she could consent to marriage, although not to sex. Nothing has changed since then than the laws.

    There was a class angle to this. Working class boys and girls as a rule left school after the 8th grade up until WWII or not long after. That’s when adulthood began for them – the boys went into the mill or kept working on the farm or left home. In a year or three they were about as economically ready to marry as they ever would be. for the girls marriage was their primary career option, so after a couple of years of it was time for them to settle down too.

    For boys in wealthier families the timeline was different. They stayed in school longer and had to become established in some profession or some knd of business, and that could take years. But the girls did not have that option, or only gradually over a period of decades and as college became more available generally, so they had the same timeline as any other girls. The university culture with *sororities* and fraternities and football only started evolving in the late 19th century.

  53. “@RocketFrog, I don’t think she woke up yet, so let’s let her clarify what she meant first. I agree with you, though.”

    I took her remark as tongue in cheek. Maybe I misread the emoticon? She has made it pretty clear here and elsewhere how pro-male she is, so a misandrist comment would be out of character.

  54. @Marja Erwin, and people do talk about water poisoning as well, also known as water intoxication. I’ve even seen it happen. Your cells start to dissolve. It’s besides the point. I understand just what a hormone imbalance is, and I still seriously don’t appreciate it being thrown around completely out of context in the discussion of men’s issues, where it is well known to have a very different connotation. That’s just wrong.

  55. Okay, this doesn’t really fit in any of the recent threads, but:

    I got into a tumblr flamewar over my reply to this:

    http://ananiujitha.tumblr.com/post/33834832817/valeriekeefe-angrygirlcomics-someday-im

    I have some really mixed-up feelings here. I have had to deal with creepy people, I haven’t always been able to get away, [though a park bench is usually one of those places where one can get away], and I have been sexually assaulted.

    I don’t like the rush to judgement though. I mean, I have respiratory problems, and people judge me if my wheezing is too loud, or if I sneeze, or anything. I see and hear people using mouth-breather as an insult, as if everyone has gills or something else to breathe through.

  56. I know it’s just a comic but….

    The “reaction” is WAY outta proportion to the “crime.”

    It’s strange how those feminists say that bus driver used excessive force when he hit the girl who had spat on him AND attacked him (as the bus was still moving), why don’t they call this comic out?

    That being said, I consume a fair dose of “violent media” and can’t really say I’m “butt-hurt” by the comic….

  57. The “reaction” is WAY outta proportion to the “crime.”

    Crime? What fucking crime? A man sat next to her on the same bench. The horror!

    You know where this kind of thing is considered a crime or some kind of gross offense? In India, as when an Untouchable or someone to far down the caste scale gets too close to some high-caste person – and probably not even there anymore.

    And that’s the mentality we are seeing here, a gendered caste mentality, the notion that men are unclean and horrible just by fault of existing and that a girl has a God-given right to kill a man just because she feels like it. This is a KKK mentality.

    The comments on this were a zoo. More than one idiot called thought to point out that this was “just a joke”, that pathetic weak old tired lying excuse, that she didn’t actually kill anyone. I don’t see how they get that interpretation, and I don’t see how that matters except to expose their owen man-hatred and how dishonest they are willing to be to excuse man-hatred.

    This is as far down the road of toxic dameseling as you can go, as deep the Pure Vessel Victorianism as you can go.

    As usual Valerie Keefe lays the smacketh down on exactly the right spot.

    Valerie, you say stuff like this makes you feel ashamed to call yourself a feminist. I say your response to this should make you feel proud to be a feminist.

  58. Interesting… Without the caption, I read the comic as saying, “Sick people shouldn’t go out in public. Bringing germs into the public arena is a crime that rates death.” Only the caption informs me that the man in the comic is intending to interact with the woman at all.

    It seems rude to me to assume that someone is wrong about the details of their own life. If the author says that a man was harassing her by coughing, I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt. But that context has not been brought into the art in any way that a neutral observer can tell. (And, of course, all the discussion is about commenters assuming the artist is wrong.)

    If the goal of the comic was to depict someone hitting on someone else, it has failed to achieve that goal.

  59. SWAB, I got that part and that you were suing the word as part of a set phrase. But look how that man’s “presumption” really is treated like a crime.

  60. “It seems rude to me to assume that someone is wrong about the details of their own life. If the author says that a man was harassing her by coughing, I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt.”

    EGR, the idea that someon can harrass you by coughiong fails on its own. Besides it’s very clear to me that she felt she could blow his head off not because he was coughing, or he would instead have been a woman, but because he was a man. The choice of gender is not random and I think it’s about impossible that the comic could have been drawn with a woman coughing getting her head blown off.

    So not only is the comic offensive because of the gross gendered violence, but for the bigoted attitude that drives the violence.

    Let’s play flip the genders. A comic shows a Save-the-Earth environmental group picketing a hospital with some kind of mobile ultrasound unit. They scan every woman in labor on her way up to the maternity ward. They find one with a female fetus, pull out a gun and blown her whole abdomen away in a spray of blood.

    See the offensiveness now? See how the what a person says “about the details of their own life” only makes it worse, does not excuse her in any way?

  61. Besides it’s very clear to me that she felt she could blow his head off not because he was coughing, or he would instead have been a woman, but because he was a man.

    From reading the comic without the caption, It was not at all clear to me that the comic was about harassment. Only the caption contained that information. This is clearly some kind of “art fail,” I’m just not sure if I failed to pick up an obvious subtext, or if it was badly communicated. (Is the problem on the sender or the receiver?)

    See the offensiveness now? See how the what a person says “about the details of their own life” only makes it worse, does not excuse her in any way?

    It is disgusting, and Valerie’s response was spot-on. This is all based on the artist’s (psychic?) ability to determine that the man coughing next to her on the bench is (secretly?) trying to hit on her.

    But I don’t improve the conversation any by growing my own psychic powers and trying to figure out what really happened. My complaint is that the alleged subtext of the coughing is not at all clear from the comic, not that the source incident is a fever-dream of a narcissist. (This is a rule I follow about conversations on the internet.)

    I’m tempted to post the comic somewhere and ask people what they think it’s about.

    tl;dr I refuse to use my psychic powers to determine what really happened to someone on the internet.

  62. What I got out of that comic was just that sick people should not be in public lest they be creepy and gross out women.

  63. And, on top of that, statistics show that a majority of violent male rape offenders were molested as children (with the gender divide landing firmly on the side of female aggressors.) Statistics show that the most accurate indicator for flagrant promiscuity in adults is a lower age of loss of virginity (regardless of the gender of the promiscuous person, regardless of the gender of the initiator.)

    @MaMu1977, one of the overlooked dynamics in all of this is the way children are socialized after they had already been abused. Male victims hardly ever get help and then they get thrown at the mercy of a gender role which tells them into taking an active role in pursuing women. It’s compounding one extreme with another. Women, on the other hand, are socialized to very passive but also to believe that nothing they do can ever be harmful to men. And that aspect allows them to rationalize all types of horrible behavior. In my unscientific experience, women seem to believe that fell into “relationships” with their victims and that things just sort of took off on their own, whereas the male abusers seem more likely to believe that they took on a sort of “mentor” role. So I hypothesize that both the sort of damage done by the abuser and the socialization afterwards is gendered in a way that is going to be what shapes the sort of people the victims will become.

    I think that without extensive detection and intervention to stop female abusers in the act, every once in a while it will result in someone like Josef Fritzl. But the other aspect to this is to convince women to start holding themselves accountable for their romantic lives. That means teaching women they’re responsible for their actions, the need to pursue their romantic affairs, and in turn being able to dial back the pressure on men to see themselves as always having to take the initiative.

  64. “What I got out of that comic was just that sick people should not be in public lest they be creepy and gross out women.”

    oh, RF, it was gendered alright….

    also, it wasn’t the part about-okay if you have a cough, you should stay home…

    also, “offending” someone, an appropriate response would be, please don’t disturb me, I’m trying to concentrate, not blowing someone’s head off…

  65. EGR,
    “But I don’t improve the conversation any by growing my own psychic powers and trying to figure out what really happened. ”

    I agree. It doesn’t take psychic powers to see what actually happened – the girl blew a man’s head off. And something else we see, not deduce, is that no reasonable grounds for her action are shown. That’s all I’m saying.

    You don’t get to blow someone’s head off because he sits next to you on a public bench, or because he is sick and coughing or whatever other non-threatening thing that person does, no matter how frail, frilly and feminine you think you are or feminine feeling “grossed out” makes you feel.

  66. I should probably have been more specific. It is not all right for sick men to go out in public, lest they creep out and gross out women.

    I am not sure I understand why it is supposed to be funny that she murders the coughing man.

  67. I agree. It doesn’t take psychic powers to see what actually happened – the girl blew a man’s head off. And something else we see, not deduce, is that no reasonable grounds for her action are shown. That’s all I’m saying.

    I am failing to communicate here, I think. What actually happened is that she ignored the guy for five minutes, he left, then she drew a comic about shooting him. No one was actually shot. It is the actual, real world “incident” that I don’t feel that it’s appropriate to comment on.

    Without the discussion of that incident, the comic does not appear to be about harassment, but about illness. (Though RocketFrog correctly points out that even there, there is a gendered component.)

    I am regularly blind to these sorts of subtleties. (ie, the characters are a man and a woman because it’s about the relations between men and women, not just because it’s more interesting to draw different kinds of people.)

  68. Further to my eaarlier comment…

    Outside the home it’s actually boys. Consider that most of the institutional abuse coming to light involves male victims.

    In Victoria, Aus at the moment…

    Inquiry into Catholic Church abuse begins

    News on the radio a few minutes ago that boys are apparently niney five percent of the victims.

  69. ” It is the actual, real world “incident” that I don’t feel that it’s appropriate to comment on.”

    Okay, now I’ve got it. Communication takes two, and I was falling down on my end too.

    RF,
    “I should probably have been more specific. It is not all right for sick men to go out in public, lest they creep out and gross out women.
    I am not sure I understand why it is supposed to be funny that she murders the coughing man.”

    Well that was nice, tight and succinct. Thank you.

    You have just seen a feature of this kind of empathy apartheid that you sued ot se in racist humor of the kind only maybe EGR and I remember. Making fun of certain minorities was perfectly accpetable because it is was acceptable to just generally disrespect them.

  70. Yeah its good we’re actually discussing whether its rational to believe this man’s story or not. This is a very healthy thing for us to be doing, checking each others work and correcting one another, reminding each other when we let emotion or just common error drive us from the path. The way we should look at it is we already have enough truth to be comfortable, its understandable that we want more data and more proof and we will get that, but its so easy to let emotion step in and find us what we are craving, as opposed to finding us the truth. Fact is, we have enough truth, giving us a very powerful position.

  71. as far as the “Bus Driver incident”-I was refering to this….

    https://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/sign-the-petition-to-reinstate-artis-hughes/

    The Manboobz crowd doesn’t even see the fact that he was attacked as relevant….

    There is no evidence that the bus driver was attacked. The “omega virgin revolt” dude promotes violence against women. He’s just like Eivind Berge except smarter so he doesn’t directly promote violence against women. He hides behind “self defense” and lies about women committing violence.

  72. ” There is no evidence that the bus driver was attacked.”

    Except for the video of the bus driver being attacked.

  73. Even if you two are right about the bus driver being attacked (and the facts aren’t in yet), the “omega virgin revolt” dude is still using it as a method to promote violence against all women while hiding it in the language of “self-defense”.

    I want to support the MRM. I really do, but too many of them like “omega virgin revolt” are only there because they hate women with a fiery white hot passion. If you don’t realize that it is because dudes like “omega virgin revolt” are smarter than Eivind Berge and know how to play the long game in their war on women.

  74. “Even if you two are right about the bus driver being attacked (and the facts aren’t in yet)…”

    The facts are in, we saw the fucking video. Just because the facts don’t line up with your worldview, that doesn’t make them wrong.

    I’m not going to address you again, since you clearly have some kind of mental filter that prevents you from seeing women as being at fault or responsible for the consequences of their actions, even in the face of direct evidence.

  75. I just want to hear both sides of the story. What is wrong with that? Do you seriously think you can get both sides of the story from a blog with “omega virgin revolt” in its name?

  76. I want to support feminism. I really do, but too many of them like Amanda Marcotte, Hugo Schwyzer an Mr. Manboobz are only there because they hate men and boys with a fiery white hot passion. If you don’t realize that it is because feminists like that are smarter than Villet Tiptree and know how to play the long game in their war on men and boys.

    Fixed it for you, you can thank me but I won’t hold my breathe…

  77. also a feminist excusing a womyn’s ™ bad behavior isn’t just supporting misandry but misogyny too. How is this possible? Well, when she assaulted the bus driver, it is possible that the bus could’ve crashed, harming a pedestrian, perhaps a child, perhaps even an infant girl. Also there were male and female passengers on the bus….

  78. Do you seriously think you can get both sides of the story with a blog with “manboobz” as it’s name?

    We can play this sh*t all day….

    There are tons of articles about this outside the gendersphere…

    He may have responded with undo force, a court will figure that out. He was indeed attacked, you can watch the evidence.

  79. Stoner, you attempt at an analogy falls flat on its face because Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti, and other heterosexual feminist women don’t have trouble dating (and getting married to) the opposite sex. How much can these feminists hate men if they have have relationships with men (and even marry men)?

    OTOH, Mr. “omega virgin revolt” is a mid 30s virgin male who goes beyond anti-feminism. He is paranoid of women to the point where he tries to completely avoid them. At the same time he is angry that they won’t have sex with him. His feminist counterparts do not have this kind of trouble with men. Mr. “omega virgin revolt” isn’t even about mens rights or anti-feminism. He is about hating women and finding ways to harm women.

    I really don’t have an opinion yet on what happened to the bus driver, but I would like to read about this from a source other than someone who seriously called his blog, “omega virgin revolt”.

  80. Do you seriously think you can get both sides of the story with a blog with “manboobz” as it’s name?

    In a case like this, no, but I would say it is slightly more trustworthy since the man behind manboobz doesn’t have personal trouble with the opposite sex like Mr. “omega virgin revolt” does.

    He may have responded with undo force, a court will figure that out.

    Then why is the woman who supposedly attacked the bus driver being crucified at blogs like “omega virgin revolt”? Since a court will figure it out, the only reason for man like Mr. “omega virgin revolt” to get out the pitchforks and torches is because he hates women and wants to harm them.

  81. “In a case like this, no, but I would say it is slightly more trustworthy since the man behind manboobz doesn’t have personal trouble with the opposite sex like Mr. “omega virgin revolt” does.”

    man who is sexually successful with womyn ™=good man…

    Case in point Hugo Schwyzer attempting to kill an ex GF in a drug filled rage. I guess he is a good man because he whines and cries about how bad men of lower status then himself are….

  82. “He may have responded with undo force, a court will figure that out.”

    Look, if you came here saying it is not the person who initiates violence but the larger that holds more responsibility, we may have something to debate about but I’d say this….

    Is it okay for bicyclists and moped riders to ride around sloshed on alcohol and disregard the rules of the road whereas those driving cars and especially trucks are held to a significantly higher standard?

  83. “Stoner, you attempt at an analogy falls flat on its face because Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti, and other heterosexual feminist women don’t have trouble dating (and getting married to) the opposite sex. How much can these feminists hate men if they have have relationships with men (and even marry men)?”

    Rape Apologist perhaps?

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/09/19/is-it-rape-if-you-dont-mean-for-it-to-be-rape/#comment-526375

    That’s the thing said about PUA’s- by dehumanizing their “targets” they are much better able to handle rejection and get more “notches.” Since they get more “notches” and have more success with the opposite sex, they are therefor better people by your logic….

  84. man who is sexually successful with womyn ™=good man…

    Case in point Hugo Schwyzer attempting to kill an ex GF in a drug filled rage. I guess he is a good man because he whines and cries about how bad men of lower status then himself are….

    If a person has a problem with an entire gender, the only commonality is that person. That’s just as true of Mr. “omega virgin revolt” as Andrea Dworkin.

    Mr. “omega virgin revolt” wants most women to die and would be willing to make that happen if given the opportunity. Even your extreme example of Hugo Schwyzer is still peanuts compared to a man who names his blog “omega virgin revolt”.

  85. How much can these feminists hate men if they have have relationships with men (and even marry men)?

    Oh dear. We’re going to have to introduce you to Rush Limbaugh.

  86. Oh… looks like we have a footman/handmaiden/genderqueer-dogsbody of the kyriarchy here today. Say hello everyone.

    The argument that sexual desirability, which seems pretty well correlated with privilege, is somehow a metric of anti-oppression attitudes is a very special kind of retrograde.

  87. Anon,

    “Stoner, you attempt at an analogy falls flat on its face because Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti, and other heterosexual feminist women don’t have trouble dating (and getting married to) the opposite sex. How much can these feminists hate men if they have have relationships with men (and even marry men)?”

    Valerie Solanas didn’t have much trouble getting the opposite sex to date her either. (And if she was forcing herself to like men, it might explain why she ended up hating them.)

  88. Oh dear. We’re going to have to introduce you to Rush Limbaugh.

    Does Rush Limbaugh really hate women? Anti-feminism isn’t the same as hating women.

    Oh… looks like we have a footman/handmaiden/genderqueer-dogsbody of the kyriarchy here today. Say hello everyone.

    I have read this sentence 10 times, and I still can’t figure out what it says.

    The argument that sexual desirability, which seems pretty well correlated with privilege, is somehow a metric of anti-oppression attitudes is a very special kind of retrograde.

    This has nothing to do with sexual desirability. Have you read Mr. omega virgin revolt’s blog? He has been writing for two and a half years non-stop nothing but the worst hate against women. He has obviously been hating women to this degree most of his life because women get the message to stay away from him.

    Valerie Solanas didn’t have much trouble getting the opposite sex to date her either.

    Then the only logical conclusion is that Mr. omega virgin revolt’s hatred of women is greater than all the feminists like Solanas hatred of men combined. This makes him a thousand times more dangerous than feminists like Solanas are to men.

    The only other possible conclusion beside that is that Mr. omega virgin revolt speaks God’s truth about women, and I refuse to believe that.

  89. Anon:

    I sincerely hope that you have somehow managed to avoid ever studying formal logic in the course of your education, because I would shudder to think that any institution would pass someone whose reasoning is so full of basic fallacies. In the future, could you try to provide some “only other possible conclusions” that actually follow from your evidence and premises?

    You consistently equate an inability (or unwillingness, but you focus exclusively on celibacy as a failure state) to maintain sexual relations with people of the opposite gender with a hatred for that gender, but you have done nothing to prove your contention. All your responses to counter-examples others have provided are entirely reliant on the belief that your initial contention is true. Do you really expect anyone to accept that sort of circular reasoning?

    You seem to be implying that video evidence is invalid because it was linked (not produced) by a person whose name you dislike (maybe try demonstrating why that name is offensive? Or perhaps instead relying on actual quotations to demonstrate why this person should not be listened to?). You go on to make the absurd statement that no one can have good reason to write about a matter which will ultimately be decided by the judicial system. Surely, if that is really the case, your time would be better spent in combating the horrific excesses of the New York Times than those of one insignificant blogger. Unfortunately for you, the blogger is irrelevant to the incident in question. If you want to prove that no self-defense was involved, I suggest that you instead attempt to argue against the multiple videos recording the event.

  90. “This makes him a thousand times more dangerous than feminists like Solanas are to men.”

    Well, yes, considering Solanas died more than twenty years ago, the only danger feminists like her pose to men is accidental ingestion.

  91. “Even your extreme example of Hugo Schwyzer is still peanuts compared to a man who names his blog “omega virgin revolt”.”

    Heeheehee; apparently Stupid blog name> attempted murder…

    Stick around Anon, you’re good fun.

  92. You consistently equate an inability (or unwillingness, but you focus exclusively on celibacy as a failure state) to maintain sexual relations with people of the opposite gender with a hatred for that gender, but you have done nothing to prove your contention.

    With Mr. “omega virgin revolt”, he is both involuntarily celibate, and he hates women. Do you dispute this in HIS case?

    You seem to be implying that video evidence is invalid because it was linked (not produced) by a person whose name you dislike (maybe try demonstrating why that name is offensive?

    What does the name “omega virgin revolt” mean? Who are “omega virgins” supposed to be revolting against? If you read the blog, the “omega virgins” are supposed to revolt against women. The name, “omega virgin revolt”, is a declaration of war against women.

    Or perhaps instead relying on actual quotations to demonstrate why this person should not be listened to?

    I have more than quotations. I can give you entire blog posts such as this one where he says that women who choose to not date nerds are equivalent to Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, or this one where he says that women never do as much work as men, or this one where he says that women secretly desire to eliminate “beta males”, or this one where he says that there should be science and technology strike against women because are “insufficiently grateful” to men for developing science and technology (and according to him, women never develop science and technology).

    I can provide many more examples. He has written this sort of hate against women for 2.5 years.

    Surely, if that is really the case, your time would be better spent in combating the horrific excesses of the New York Times than those of one insignificant blogger.

    The New York Times hasn’t declared war on an entire gender. This person isn’t insignificant. He’s rich so he has the financial resources to make his dream happen. He is also a leader among other men with a similar hatred of women.

  93. This makes him a thousand times more dangerous than feminists like Solanas are to men.

    Oh, definitely. Insignificant, unknown men who have hardly a bit of influence on anything and have done little or nothing are much, much more dangerous than relatively well known, studied women who have attempted murder on a famous figure. Thousands of times.

    /s

  94. hahaha,

    call me paranoid but I’m starting to think Anon is really fatuous Futrelle trying to get some “choice quotes” for his crappy blog….

    here it is served on a plate-

    Male feminist bully ™ who can dish it out but can’t take it. Repeatedly misquotes, conflates and misrepresents. Makes fun of one man for supposedly being a virgin (and weren’t we all at one time or another) yet calls it “misogyny” when someone makes fun of his weight. …And we’re the idiots ™ for critiquing provable things like misandry and male disposability…..

  95. Anon:

    I would not contest that he is both, but you argue for a correlation and have not even attempted to prove one. If you do not, his sexual history is utterly irrelevant and you are merely engaging in virgin-shaming.

    Now, you see those links? That’s an actual argument. You should have done that from the start instead of just harping on his name.

    None of this changes the fact that the words and beliefs of this blogger are, and will remain, utterly irrelevant to the question of the video. This entire tangent is a smoke screen you threw up because you refused to engage the actual arguments others have presented in response to your initial claims.

    The next portion of my comment you quote was in response to the comment in which you imply that there is something inherently wrong with writing about the incident in question or criticizing the woman who can be seen initiating an assault on the bus driver in multiple pieces of video evidence (which you continue to ignore) for doing just that and further suggest that the only reason for writing a piece critical of such behavior is a hatred of women. Once again, you completely ignore both the context and content of criticism addressed to your arguments and repeat the same tired line you have parroted in every paragraph of every comment since you introduced this topic. Whether or not someone has “declared war on an entire gender” would be relevant if you had written a criticism of the substance of that article. You did not do so: You merely criticized the fact that an article on that subject was written. This being the case, my point still stands.

    “This person isn’t insignificant. He’s rich so he has the financial resources to make his dream happen. He is also a leader among other men with a similar hatred of women.”

    Pfff… Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hee hee hee hee hee…. HA HA HA HA HA HA ha ha ha…
    Oh, man, that was a good one. Seriously? He runs a tiny blog no one has ever heard of. Almost none of his posts even have comment threads in the triple digits. In comparison, there are independent game reviewers who get hundreds every week and more than a few webcomics that get thousands multiple times a week. There are columnists on Anime News Network who have more cultural influence than this man.If he’s so much of a threat, what’s he doing to “make his dream happen” other than posting angry rants to his blog? The most active role he seems to be taking on any issue is posting links to someone else’s petition. What “financial resources” does he have that could possibly translate into the kinds of policies he talks about? They clearly aren’t enough to afford a decent website design, his own domain name or any sort of marketing. Dave and Joel’s Fast Karate for the Gentlemen is a bigger operation than this nutjob. You’re seriously trying to tell me his ideas have a wider reach than those of people who’ve had multiple books in print in multiple languages for decades and that he’s more dangerous than people who have personally attempted to put their deluded ravings into practice?

    Man, I thought you were being serious for a while there, but that last one just went too far out there. I’ll give you a 5/10, since it took multiple posts to figure out you were just trolling (don’t worry, I come from a part of the internet where that’s an art form, not a dismissal of people you don’t like), but you didn’t manage to pull off anything that provoked a real emotional response.

  96. Oh, definitely. Insignificant, unknown men who have hardly a bit of influence on anything and have done little or nothing are much, much more dangerous than relatively well known, studied women who have attempted murder on a famous figure. Thousands of times.

    Everyone who is significant started out as insignificant.

    call me paranoid but I’m starting to think Anon is really fatuous Futrelle trying to get some “choice quotes” for his crappy blog….

    I’m not Futrelle nor a particular fan of his. I just fail to see how Futrelle is worse than a man who declares war on the entire female gender.

    I would not contest that he is both, but you argue for a correlation and have not even attempted to prove one.

    Mr. omega virgin revolt is in his mid 30s if I remember right. 35 year old virgins are pretty rare. Most people manage to get it on with the opposite sex (or the same sex if that is their orientation) long before their mid 30s. Why is he so different? Might it have to do with is hatred of and paranoia of women? What other explanation is there for him unless you accept what he says about women being evil?

    You should have done that from the start instead of just harping on his name.

    I suppose, but all you have to do is take a quick look at his blog. He doesn’t keep his hatred of women hidden.

    None of this changes the fact that the words and beliefs of this blogger are, and will remain, utterly irrelevant to the question of the video.

    One of the videos he links to was removed from youtube so we only have his words to go on about it. I don’t see a reason to trust that.

    The next portion of my comment you quote was in response to the comment in which you imply that there is something inherently wrong with writing about the incident in question or criticizing the woman who can be seen initiating an assault on the bus driver in multiple pieces of video evidence (which you continue to ignore) for doing just that and further suggest that the only reason for writing a piece critical of such behavior is a hatred of women.

    I think that is true when someone like Mr. omega virgin revolt writes about it, not people in general.

    He runs a tiny blog no one has ever heard of. Almost none of his posts even have comment threads in the triple digits.

    Everyone starts out small.

    What “financial resources” does he have that could possibly translate into the kinds of policies he talks about?

    I can’t know his finances, but he has talked about how he owns his own business and how he makes a lot of money from that. It could all be a lie, but that seems like an odd thing to lie about.

    If he’s so much of a threat, what’s he doing to “make his dream happen” other than posting angry rants to his blog?

    By the time we would know that, it would be too late.

    You’re seriously trying to tell me his ideas have a wider reach than those of people who’ve had multiple books in print in multiple languages for decades and that he’s more dangerous than people who have personally attempted to put their deluded ravings into practice?

    Not yet, but there are a lot of men who are angry at women for (perceived) rejection. These men are growing in number and their hatred of women. They have similar ideas without ever reading his blog. That’s where the real threat is.

    I’ll give you a 5/10, since it took multiple posts to figure out you were just trolling

    Believe what you want. You will learn I was right the hard way when guys like Mr. omega virgin revolt organize and start causing real trouble.

  97. Anon:

    Okay, I stand corrected. Honestly, I would have had more respect for this if it were just an attempt to get a rise out of people

    Seriously, dude? ‘He’s small-time now, but it is theoretically possible that he might do something big in the future’? You’re seriously suggesting that owning his won business and being relatively well-off put him even close to the resources he would need to do anything he’s talking about? Only governments and major multinational conglomerates deal in the kind of material and monetary resources you’re talking about. Do you see any evidence of him getting a following? Anything that might point to a growing powerbase or any sort of planned action? In short, can you point out anything that separates this person from the millions of other idiots on the internet who are furious over something or other? Do you honestly believe his message or presentation are in any way novel or unique? Call me back when he at least has a book deal, because even if you believe he’s going to really take off, none of the great monsters who started off small went from irate unkown blogger to marching through the streets with death squads or even influencing policy anywhere close to overnight.

    Oh, and of course we have the unspecified and growing group of like-minded men who are the “real threat” and are going to organize, take over and institute horrible policies to the detriment of women. No evidence or arguments in support of all this, obviously. This scare-mongering is just getting pathetic.

    One of the videos is still up last I checked, you still haven’t addressed it, and it doesn’t take much searching to find other sources talking about the same incident. Do you seriously believe you;re talking about the guy who broke this story? Do you imagine he would ever be in a position to do that?

    Also, the virgin-shaming is seriously getting old. I look at the rest of what you write with bemused indifference, but the way you approach that subject is quite simply disgusting.

  98. and, yeah, you keep on bringing up his supposed virginity….

    are you planning to deflower him with your “mangina”?

    I don’t know who you are and I don’t use the word creep often but that seems to suit you Anon…

  99. SWaB:

    I wasn’t going to go there unless he kept it up, but ‘creep’ definitely fits the line he’s taking.

    Anon:

    Actually, are you this dude’s publicist or something? The only reason I can think of why you would be so hung up on discussing a guy who probably has a smaller readership than Violence Jill is if you want to promote traffic to his site.

  100. back on topic….

    http://www.cleveland.com/morris/index.ssf/2012/10/rta_bus_driver_violently_punch.html

    “Lane, according to a police report and witnesses, attacked Hughes and spit on his face. If such an assault occurred — and the video appears to show the woman hovering over the driver — Lane not only threatened Hughes’ safety but the safety of everyone on the bus, not to mention the well-being of any pedestrians or motorists in the proximity. ”

    you can certainly make the argument the bus driver didn’t handle things well as the author did in the article, however, she is no angle and started the whole thing. Anon, you aren’t arguing in good faith, go back to manboobz and leave the rest of us alone…

  101. I found The Black Pill (aka, Omega Virgin Revolt) to be very useful for its meta-criticism of the MRM. But I only read the header pages and the last month’s worth of posts. I didn’t dig back into the archives from a few years ago, as Anon did. I note that there’s a different authorial tone in the older posts. Perhaps the change in tone correlates with the change in name?

    Even in the linked posts, I don’t see a war against women. I see the (uncommon, but not rare,) position of “men built society and women are just leeches.” I also see a current of “women want to kill beta men.” His older stuff seems to be couched in PUA language, but given what he says in (featured posts) that game is a cult (http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com/the-paleo-game-cult/) and that dating advice is a distraction (http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com/a-call-to-arms-to-destroy-the-misandrist-dating-advice-distraction/). It seems to me that he has changed his opinion. (But this is me, using internet ESP, which is notoriously unreliable.)

    I find that analysis of dating advice compelling, myself.

    It seems like our Anon is trying to character-assassinate a relatively marginal person. I wonder why.

  102. It seems like our Anon is trying to character-assassinate a relatively marginal person. I wonder why.

    Concern trolling:

    concern troll

    January 27, 2011 Urban Word of the Day

    A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of “concern,” to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don’t really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending.

    A concern troll on a progressive blog might write, “I don’t think it’s wise to say things like that because you might get in trouble with the government.” Or, “This controversy is making your side look disorganized.”

    See: Anon:

    Believe what you want. You will learn I was right the hard way when guys like Mr. omega virgin revolt organize and start causing real trouble.

  103. “Actually that wasn’t the topic.”

    yeah, Anon derailed my derail….

    but atleast I was talking about a bigger thing relating to gender and (s)he just wanted to make fun of another blogger…

  104. LOL Oh what a tangled web we weave.

    Stoner With a Boner on October 22, 2012 at 6:39 pm said:

    “Actually that wasn’t the topic.”

    yeah, Anon derailed my derail….

  105. Yes, Omega Virgin (aka the Black Pill) is a misogynist asshole who thinks he is the Manosphere’s Torquemada. He writes posts attacking game, paleo diets, female MRA’s, etc, and constantly complains the people who do or believe the things he attacks aren’t ‘real ‘ MRA’s, and that there is not enough activism going on though he hardly does any activism himself. I’ve gotten in a few throw-downs with him in his comment section, usually over his attempts to divide MRA’s, and his obvious disgust with the moral character of women.

    That being said he’s not an eliminationist. You’ll never see him advocate for violence (save self defense) or death for women, and you’ll never see him advocate for enslaving them. There are plenty of radfems and other haterz on the web and in the world worse than he is.
    Importantly, Anon never told you what made this blogger the way he is : multiple false accusations, mostly at various jobs. It’s why he now works for himself.

    And that’s all I’m going to say on the matter.

  106. Clarence, thanks for that last insight into this whole fascinating and I think very informative derailment into a rather marginal character. As toxic as Omega Vurgin is, he comes nowhere close in misogyny as RadFemHub comes in misandry. And gues who SPLC would brand a hate sight.

    I would like to thank all the other commenters who engaged with Anon and drew him out into making all the standard male feminist arguements, which are both misandrst and misogynist. It is very, very good to get them marshalled like this as you have encouraged and manipulated him into saying explicitly

    I intend to make a post on this and I have you for coaxing/goading him into supplying the substance of that post. it may not be obvious to you, but there are still lots of young people who face his particular brand of shit everyday in university classes, and who will benefit from your efforts.

    Again, thank you all.

  107. Clarence, thanks for that last insight into this whole fascinating and I think very informative derailment into a rather marginal character.(Gingko)

    Seeing as we’ve gone off the rails. In the grand scheme of things, are we not all marginal characters? 🙂

  108. I had no idea until now that you guys were talking about me.

    @Evil Green Ranger

    My tone may have changed over time because my focus has changed over time too. Some of my views have evolved over time too. For example, my first encounters with game (or PUA) were all of the Roissy variety. Roissyite game is the insane asylum of the game world, but I didn’t know that. I assumed that gamers were all racists, conspiracy theorists, anti-science, compulsive doomsayers, and deranged in general in addition to believing the cargo cult they called game because that’s all I was dealing with. Later I found out that I was wrong. I wasn’t wrong about game. It still didn’t work, but the typical man trying game was just a man who wanted to get laid and meet women. He had nothing in common with the deranged Roissyites. Game doesn’t work, but only the Roissyites are insane.

    That being said, I still stand behind what I said in the four posts that anon found. I don’t stand behind anon’s interpretation of them.

    I wouldn’t say that I ever used “PUA language”. Gamers have no original ideas. They stole them from other places so there is no “PUA language”.

    Generally, when women find my blog, they mostly go nuts. I have deal with women like anon before, although I never seen someone try so hard to attack me on another blog where I have no history of comments.

    @Clarence

    It’s more accurate to say that I’m the so called manosphere’s boogeyman or Keith Henson.

    You’re being incredibly dishonest by leaving out how I attack all of the racism, anti-semitism, white supremacism, conspiracy theory, and anti-science ideology of the manosphere which is deeply connected Roissyite game, the paleo diet, and fake MRAs. Most of the people I attack for not being real MRAs say they aren’t MRAs and attack MRAs as the male equivalent to feminists and losers who can’t get laid. When someone writes that, I tend to believe them. Most of them invade MRA spaces for the purpose of hiding behind the MRM’s good name (in comparison to them).

    Various major personalities of the so called manosphere have admitted that they don’t judge the credibility of a person or an idea based on its logic, facts, or evidence, but on its “verisimilitude”. In other words, the so called manosphere thinks something is true if it “feels right” to them. That deserves to be attacked. If this divides actual MRAs (which are distinct from the so called manosphere), then the division is a good idea.

    @Ginkgo

    If you think I’m toxic, wait a couple of decades. I’m going to look like a moderate in 2032 or 2042.

  109. When it comes to activism, I have done more than all of the so called manosphere combined. That’s not difficult since the so called manosphere is incapable of doing anything it the real world. The problem is that from the so called manosphere’s perspective I don’t “do anything” because I’m not lying on the internet about getting laid like they are. My activism also includes supporting men like Artis Hughes and Brian Banks. Both of them are African-American and by default hated in the so called manosphere for their skin color so activism for them doesn’t count in the so called manosphere.

  110. TBP:
    Since you showed up here, I will grant you the respect of a reply:
    It is correct that you attack racist, conspiracists, and anti-science parts of the “manosphere” as well and I actually applaud you for doing so. It’s also true that some of those you attack as not real “MRA’s” would not call themselves MRA’s either. And while some MGTOW and MRA’s may use “game” it’s true that big game bloggers do not identify as MRA. However, that I didn’t list every single category of person you’ve ever attacked doesn’t mean that I was being deliberately dishonest about you. Perhaps I didn’t think of listing every single category because my main point was that 99 percent plus of your posts consist of attacks on various people, many of whom- even if they wouldn’t go so far as to call themselves MRA’s – are indeed sympathetic to much of the goals of the MRM. I find your tactics divisive and useful only when applied to people who are hateful such as the racists. Attacking Hawaiian Libertarian, for instance, simply because he believes in some conspiracy theories is stupid. He has yet to go to AVFM (even though him and PE are on good terms) and demand anything, let alone waste their time by trying to convert them to a paleo diet. He supports some of what MRA’s do, and I’m not adverse to taking help where one can find it.

    Basically, your whole schtick is purity. When all MRA’s and MRA allies are as pure and focused as you – when none of them believe anything you find silly or offensive ,in other words – then, and only then will the MRA be able to move forward. Of course in reality, politics are always built through coalitions, and there are always disagreements in any large movement, and not every one who helps the MRM can do so full time. So I see your blog is nothing but bowing to our enemies (in that you adopt a stance that whatever they find offensive and YOU find offensive is wrong, so you concede moral ground to feminists) and a divisive vanity project that will lead no-where. Meanwhile, while you’ve been complaining and hating and certainly doing little, if any, “on the record” activism, AVFM, NCFM, S.A.V.E. and F&F are doing activism and getting things done despite the fact that conspiracy theorists still exist in the manosphere and that women are involved in all 4 organizations.

    And that brings up your attitude about women. I don’t think I can type enough adjectives to describe how low you think the average woman is morally, though you do admit that a few of them might have some ethics. While I understand that your reactions are the product of your background and are perfectly understandable , the fact is you are still a misogynist and MRA’s – just as much as with the racial idiots – shouldn’t associate with you by your own argument. In this society the ONLY thing that might trump a misogynist for evil is a racist. Considering the company your type of man keeps in the social moral hierarchy in this country (and the western world in general) I don’t think you have room to talk about shunning.

    And here’s the funny thing. Despite criticizing the hell out of you, I’ve neither called for you to be banned here or at any other blog, nor have I went anywhere and asserted that your difficulties (to put it mildly) with women meant you had nothing worth while to say. I wish you could extend some of those you criticize the same courtesy.

  111. Hello Black Pill,

    I wouldn’t say that I ever used “PUA language”. Gamers have no original ideas. They stole them from other places so there is no “PUA language”.

    When someone uses the words “alpha”, “beta”, or “hypergamy”, I assume that they are working from the same mindset as the PUAs. Your older articles used those words, while your newer ones didn’t. (Note that I haven’t read all of your archives.)

    Similarly, if someone says “patriarchy” or “privilege”, I assume they are coming from a feminist perspective.

    Generally, when women find my blog, they mostly go nuts. I have deal with women like anon before, although I never seen someone try so hard to attack me on another blog where I have no history of comments.

    Anon’s only posts are on this thread, and they only showed up after SWAB linked to you. It looks like you have a stalker. Probably using google alerts or similar.

    Basically, your whole schtick is purity. When all MRA’s and MRA allies are as pure and focused as you – when none of them believe anything you find silly or offensive ,in other words – then, and only then will the MRA be able to move forward.

    Clarence, you say that like it’s a bad thing. 😉 Seriously though, many MRA spaces have a number of (to me) distracting threads. So many places are full of “oh no, I’m getting divorced”/”All women are like that”/”I am in a reciprocally violent relationship”/”get yourself an Asian woman”/”if you had game this wouldn’t be a problem”/”why do nice guys finish last”/”look what the feminists are saying now”/etc that you can’t see the Men’s Rights discussion, if there is any. Black Pill’s purity keeps most of that stuff off his plate, and it seems like the MRM could stand to have a bit less of it too.

    Actually, looking at that list, all of those are people mistaking their own personal crisis for a greater social problem. “The personal is political” indeed. (The same applies to the dating advice distraction.) (But, repeated personal problems may be an indicator of an overarching social problem.) (Gah. This is very hard to think through without getting tangled in knots.) (“Holy Shit, Guys. People Are Complicated.” http://xkcd.com/592/)

  112. @Anon

    I have read this sentence 10 times, and I still can’t figure out what it says.

    Well, that is likely because you are exceedingly stupid and don’t know how to work a search engine…

    This has nothing to do with sexual desirability. Have you read Mr. omega virgin revolt’s blog? He has been writing for two and a half years non-stop nothing but the worst hate against women. He has obviously been hating women to this degree most of his life because women get the message to stay away from him.

    You know what? No. You don’t get to use an individual MRA’s dating life as a case study against the MRM just like they don’t get to use an individual feminist’s psychological history as a case study against the whole feminist movement. You can talk about individuals when they exercise enough political power to leave a death toll, like Raymond and the Reagan Administration… somehow I think her sex life is again, however, the least relevant question.

    On behalf of every dyke who’s been told, “I’m not into boys,” go fuck yourself with your sleazy attempts to use romantic success or lack thereof as a metric of humanity. Go away.

  113. “Both of them are African-American and by default hated in the so called manosphere for their skin color so activism for them doesn’t count in the so called manosphere.”

    This animus against black people will come as a huge surprise to people like Nurdy Dancing.

    “When it comes to activism, I have done more than all of the so called manosphere combined. ”

    That will come as a surprise to Fathers and Family, A Voice for Men and the National Coalition of Men. A nobody liek me has heard of them and their efforts, and heard nothing at all about yours.

    “Basically, your whole schtick is purity.”

    Purism is generally an adolescent indulgence, Clarence, although as EGR points out it can have some tactical usefulness.

  114. @Clarence

    It is correct that you attack racist, conspiracists, and anti-science parts of the “manosphere” as well and I actually applaud you for doing so.

    Attacking Hawaiian Libertarian, for instance, simply because he believes in some conspiracy theories is stupid.

    I put these two sentences together to show just how contradictory you’re being. Either I’m correct for attacking conspiracy theorists or I’m stupid for doing that. There’s no middle ground on this of, “It’s correct to attack conspiracy theorists except for Hawaiian Libertarian”. That makes no sense. This is a case of its either one or the other so trying to assert both statements means you’re being dishonest about something.

    Yes, you were being dishonest by saying I attack, “game, paleo diets, female MRA’s,”. I have never attacked an actual female MRA. I only attack Roissyite gamers. I have worked very hard at showing that there is a difference between Roissyite and non-Roissyite gamers. While I disagree with non-Roissyite gamers about game, we can get along. (Some non-Roissyite gamers have even come to my blog to support me because they want nothing to do with the racist conspiracy theorist variant of game, and they consider Roissy to be a fraud.) Saying I attack gamers or game is highly inaccurate. Since Roissyite gamers are racists and/or conspiracy theorists, it would be more accurate to say I attack racists or conspiracy theorists. When it comes to the paleo diet, you know that most people here aren’t familiar with the paleo diet. They don’t know that the paleo diet is a conspiracy theory that requires its adherents to believe that doctors, nutritionists, and other medical authorities are conspiring to hide medical knowledge from the general populace. Several of the major personalities behind the paleo diet are listed on Quackwatch because the paleo diet is anti-science too. It would have been more accurate to say I attack racists, conspiracy theorists, and anti-science ideologues.

    My “divisiveness” is not unique. NCFM, SAVE and F&F practice the same divisiveness that I do by default. AVFM practices 80% of the same divisiveness that I do. The only reason it isn’t 100% for AVFM is that they haven’t rejected conspiracy theorists. Otherwise, Paul Elam has been plenty divisive when it comes to game, manhood101.com, white supremacists, racists, anti-semitism, traditional conservatism, the “alt right”, etc., and he is right to do so.

    If you want to talk about real divisiveness, then look at the so called manosphere. Criticism of major manosphere personalities or its (un)holy writs gets you the online equivalent of an inquisition. It’s hasn’t just happened to me. The manosphere’s attacks on Alek Novy (who has arguably been attacked more by the manosphere than I have) are absolutely deplorable. The so called manosphere has attacked PMAFT, YBM, Alek Novy, and myself by saying we’re all secretly the same person. Paul Elam gets regularly attacked by manosphere conspiracy theorists as a “government agent”, “Illuminati agent”, etc. These are their own words. Accusing me of “divisiveness” is pure projection on your part.

    I don’t care if my blog “cedes moral ground to feminists”. I stand up against racism, conspiracy theory, anti-science quacks because it is the right thing to do. Not only is it the right thing to do, none of these groups have accomplished any of their own goals. Also, being associated with them, just gives feminists ammo to use against the MRM. By definition, they can’t help the MRM. This is on top of the fact that according to THEIR OWN WORDS they are hostile to the idea of mens rights. I’m correct both morally and practically.

    The manosphere and the MRM are two completely different things. I would not say that I have done more activism than someone like Glenn Sacks. NCFM, SAVE and F&F have probably never even heard of the so called manosphere. The reason why they get things done is because they have no association with the so called manosphere. AVFM has even said goodbye to the manosphere and that the manosphere has no common purpose with the MRM.

    If my fellow MRAs can get things done by not associating with me, then I support their decision. However, the real MRAs aren’t associating with the manosphere either. By your own metrics, I am better than the entire manosphere.

    @Evil Green Ranger

    I understand your confusion about my use of “PUA language”. You are correct in most cases. I guess its my own stubbornness that I refuse to cede linguistic territory to them. I agree with concepts like hypergamy and the 80/20 rule even though PUAs use them a lot. Those concepts weren’t invented by PUAs even though they were associated with them.

    I don’t think I have a stalker as such. Occasionally, a woman shows up at my blog to attack me, but they go away eventually. From their IP addresses they aren’t the same woman, and they aren’t using TOR or a proxy to hide themselves. I suspect that “anon” is this woman who showed up on my blog right after “anon” stopped posting here.

    I’m not about “purity” as much as I am about not being drowned out in off topic rubbish. Conspiracy theorists in particular are very guilty of this since they have a long history of invading unrelated forums and blogs. The MRM isn’t unique in dealing with the problem, but this is the only place where we’re told that we “need” these kooks.

    @Ginkgo

    The manosphere and the MRM are two separate things. Like I told Clarence, AVFM, has (mostly) completely rejected the so called manosphere. F&F, NCFM, etc. have no connection with the so called manosphere and probably have no idea what the so called manosphere is. There is no way I can seriously say that I have done more activism than MRAs who have been agitating against feminism for decades. However, I can easily say that I have done more activism than the so called manosphere. All the so called manosphere does is lie about getting laid. Any activism I do is more than everyone in the so called manosphere combined, by definition, because the manosphere does nothing whatsoever.

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