GENERAL – MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs , and How the MRM Is Not a Monolith, Part 2

Commenter BiboSez contributed this gem to the discussion:

TheBiboSez on September 20, 2012 at 1:22 am said:
Ok, so,

A feminist, a PUA, a MRA, a MGTOW, a Mangina, a White Knight, and a natural Alpha Male are sitting in a bar drinking. Suddenly, a disheveled young waif of a woman stumbles in and asks for help.

The White Knight immediately gives her the last four $1 bills in his tattered wallet and leaves the bar to go back to work to earn for her whatever resources and provisioning she might need.

The Mangina furiously blogs about (1) how the bastardly White Knight with a tiny dick failed to completely satisfy the waif, (2) how the patriarchy brought her to such a sorry state, and (3), how she would have been so much better off clinging to him, because he, the Ultimate Mangina, mocks misogynists, and thus, her dainty and grateful surrender to his sausage fingers is his just reward.

The PUA accesses her fuckability, availablily, and hotness, and then moves on to more suitable bedmates.

The MGTOW glances up, recognizes the trap, and returns to his drink – Templeton Rye Whiskey, with 2 ice cubes, half consumed.

The MRA reviews extensive historical and evolutionary biological evidence, weighs both the dangers and benefits of a man offering assistance to a woman in need and then, glues up a poster tangentially related to the situation at hand.

The feminist blames the men in the bar (and indeed, everywhere) for her/their plight, and advises her to dress even sluttier than she is because if she were to take any responsibility for her situation, whatever the hell it might be, she would be blaming the victim, and that is. like. BAD.

The Alpha male leaves the bar with the waif long before any of the others even know what is happening. She marries him, bears him 3 kids, then files for divorce, falsely accusing him of rape, child abuse, etc; he dies a pauper while being raped in prison.

The waif moves on to the next bar.

And that is what the Bibo Sez.

Bless you!

Bless you, BiboSez.

Now notice how this joke doesn’t turn on the woman’s behavior, but on the men’s reactions, and how those reactions reflect a gender system.

The joke is not making fun of one individual woman’s behavior. There will always be problematic individuals and that doesn’t make for much of a joke. The joke is about a cultural system of expectations and rindividuals’ behavior as conditioned by those expectations. The joke is about men’s problematic gendered behavior, and not just the guys in the bar, but the entire cultural and legal system that incentivizes the waif’s dysfuntional behavior and the men’s dysfuntional responses.

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  • http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com Stoner With a Boner

    Awesome post….

    “The Mangina furiously blogs about (1) how the bastardly White Knight with a tiny dick failed to completely satisfy the waif, (2) how the patriarchy brought her to such a sorry state, and (3), how she would have been so much better off clinging to him, because he, the Ultimate Mangina, mocks misogynists, and thus, her dainty and grateful surrender to his sausage fingers is his just reward.”

    Wait is this Mr. Manboobz, maybe Fatrelle is really a Nice Guy ™ and he’s crushing on Marcotte no matter how hateful she becomes….

    I guess I’m the MGTOW, they all say I’m a dirtbag scoundrel anyways, ‘cept it ain’t rye whisky, it’s a strong IPA and I probably didn’t even bother to show up to the bar, rather drink what’s in my fridge and not risk a DUI from those meanie cops…

  • Ginkgo

    I’m the MGTOW too, although I’d probably buy the lady a tequila shot and tell her to keep on stumbling along on her pub crawl.

  • typhonblue

    “The MRA reviews extensive historical and evolutionary biological evidence, weighs both the dangers and benefits of a man offering assistance to a woman in need and then, glues up a poster tangentially related to the situation at hand.”

    Heh.

  • Paul

    Holy shit! You all have GOT to see this:

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/09/19/is-it-rape-if-you-dont-mean-for-it-to-be-rape/#comment-526368

    How, how, HOW is this woman still being taken seriously?

  • TheBiboSez

    Made my evening…thanks, Gingko et al.

    And that is what the Bibo Sez.

    Bless you!

  • elementary_watson

    @Paul: My guess is she sleep-typed this comment … *how does the whistling smily go here, btw?*

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having trouble reconciling:

    Now notice how this joke doesn’t turn on the woman’s behavior, but on the men’s reactions, and how those reactions reflect a gender system.

    with…

    She marries him, bears him 3 kids, then files for divorce, falsely accusing him of rape, child abuse, etc; he dies a pauper while being raped in prison.

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    Paul, this is my response… let’s see if it gets published:

    Oh rape apologia, how lovely. Last I checked, we were presuming non-consent unless explicitly informed otherwise. But hey, you know, accuse a rape victim of lying why don’t you, and using a rape accusation to create a power imbalance… That’s… well, despicable, but cisfeminist is as cisfeminist does, knowing she’ll have plenty of people who will be happy to erase a rape.

    Barring evidence to the contrary, it is more likely that a person who says they were raped, was raped than any other explanation. While that’s not enough to convict someone, and rightly so, I’m gonna say this:

    Stop making excuses Amanda. Stop perpetuating rape culture. Stop treating bloodflow to the genitalia different if those genitalia are Wolffian. Stop making me ashamed to call myself a feminist. And yes, if someone misinterprets an action as consent, and it isn’t, the person who was accidentally raped is still raped, even if basic intent wasn’t established, and guess what? Rape victims can be traumatized even if that wasn’t the intent, because intent isn’t fucking magic.

    So again Amanda:

    You’ve erased a rape.

    You’ve presumed untruth from someone who says they were rape.

    You’ve treated an involuntary sexual response as consent.

    You’ve referred to rape accusation as a form of abuse.

    And if we switched the CASAB of all people involved, including you, you’d be called a fedora-wearing, neckbeard (classist, masculosexist language aside) of a right-wing MRA, and rightly so.

    So, like other posters, I’m going to ask you to produce stats on incidence of false somnambulistic rape accusations, somnambulistic sex, and persons reporting somnambulistic sex as a rape.

    But you can’t do that… you can just make assumptions, and accuse someone who’s said they were raped of lying, because that’s all that fits your tidy unidirectional model.

    Sincerely,

    A survivor who’s really disgusted.

  • TheBiboSez

    My beloved Valerie –

    Yours is a reasonable observation, but let us be precise and careful to distinguish the “joke” (my post) from the subsequent commentary about my post.

    The only agency I imputed to the waif (beyond her entering the venue and asking for help) is “she marries him”.

    In reality, “she marries him” is my poetic shorthand for “the alpha male proposes a contract of marriage to the waif; she accepts the proposal, engineers and exults in her fantasy wedding, nest builds and procreates repeatedly, and then, for whatever reason, becomes aggressively hypergamous to the point where she destroys her husband / baby-daddy and their family / marriage in favor of gaining (1) as much of the husband’s assets as the friendly courts will award and (2) the monies that accrue from the speculative or actual future hookups she enjoys in the next bar.

    Now, is this how the joke turns?

    Only the truth is funny.

    Now, that is my take – indeed, the “joke turns” commenter Ginkgo must be allowed to speak to this issue as well.

    And that is what the Bibo Sez.

    Bless you!

  • TheBiboSez

    Yikes – my above comment to Valerie was written before the Off Topic twisted rape/not yes/no legit/false clusterrapefuck detonation link that wrecks civil discourse and victimizes everyone, EVERYONE, who dares to do so much as comment…

    Oops.

    For those who rape, I say, STOP.

    For those who need false and/or marginal 50 shades of grey rape stories to promote gender dominance agendas I say, STOP.

    And that is what the Bibo Sez.

    Bless you!

  • Ginkgo

    “Now notice how this joke doesn’t turn on the woman’s behavior, but on the men’s reactions, and how those reactions reflect a gender system.

    with…

    She marries him, bears him 3 kids, then files for divorce, falsely accusing him of rape, child abuse, etc; he dies a pauper while being raped in prison.”

    Yeah. But none of that would have happened if he hadn’t enabled it That doesn’t exonerate her, she’s still acting kinda sociopathic, it’s just that the joke focuses on him and not her.

    And then there ‘s the systemic part. She can falsely accuse him of marital rape,
    falsely accuse him of child abuse, and he still won’t lose the kids, end up in jail, get raped in jail and die there unless the court system aids and abets all that.
    Because her bad behavior is just hers, a one-off, not systemic – most women never act like that and it’s not even a plausible sterotype to joke on. The system does indeed act like that and it’s a big enough target for a joke to turn on.

    Like BiboSedd above.

    VK, loved that repsonse by the way. I’m going to go see how well it’s recieved. That will say a lot about that commentariat. They tend to do the right then when this subject comes up.

  • dungone

    @Valerie Keefe, I personally think that the original response (Dan Savage, really??) was really awful. He went full out DTMFA, “I think you should dump the guilt-tripping, blame-shifting motherfucker.” Marja Erwin had a problem with the neologism “mangina” in the other thread, but this is the type of man who MRA’s reserve the slur for.

    Jill’s response, on the other hand, sounded pretty reasonable to me, if only it didn’t set her up for a humongous double standard! So much for Rape Culture, right? The vest majority of the comments on that thread also seemed to be well aware of the double standard this was creating, which I think is a surprisingly positive development for a nutty website like Feministe. I mean, they didn’t just erase the boyfriend’s suffering just because he was a male! At any rate, I think that more of this sort of thing will definitely help tone down some of the extremist rape paranoia that pervades the feminist sphere.

  • Copyleft

    Reverse the genders in that story, and all the comments making excuses for the initiator would suddenly become “rape apologists.” Does anyone here doubt it?

  • EquilibriumShift

    Wow… read through the whole Feministe thread, as well as the whole Savage Love thread. A lot of people were claiming she didn’t rape him, etc. etc.

    It might not be a popular opinion, but I think that she did sexually assault him (call it rape or don’t, whatever), but that doesn’t make her a bad person.

    In general, you do not become a bad person if you sexually assault someone, and you do not need to be a bad person in order to sexually assault someone – IF the position is assumed consent, as is true in a lot of long-term relationships. This is because you can have a situation exactly like this, where someone without mens rea violated another person sexually, because of a misunderstanding.

    If however, you operate from a position of assumed non-consent, you have a lot lot lot less leeway to claim ‘misunderstanding’. (But hey, everything is possible. Or, indeed, more accurately, everything will happen, if given enough time).

    But as someone who is a ‘sleepfucker’, I have to say, she may have grossly misinterpreted his actions. He could have just been pulling her hand and had a boner. Those two things are not necessarily related, especially when someone is sleeping. Otherwise, each time my wife rolls over and becomes the little spoon, I have permission to start fucking, assuming she is wet? (I can personally guarantee I don’t, although some couples may differ – IF it is made explicit).

  • EquilibriumShift

    I say she may have misinterpreted his actions not to discount her story that he initiated, but just because we ‘sleepfuckers’ can often jump from activity to activity in our own sleeping minds, whether or not we jump from activity to activity in the physical world (i.e., he could have started by propositioning her for sex, but ended by fighting pink dragons that fart nerve gas.). If I could talk to her, I’d tell her not to feel too bad, its like when you think someone is signalling you to go at a 4-way stop, even though it is their right-of-way, you both go, and you end up t-boning them. Yeah, feel bad for a while, but in the end, you aren’t some evil meanie. On the flip side, allow your boyfriend to react any way he feels appropriate, and allow him to heal if you hurt him, even if you didn’t mean to.

  • Paul

    @Dungone

    I’m not at all surprised that was Savage’s response. The guy is a tool. I’m fairly certain the only reason he still has a column is because he’s gay. If he were a straight man making the bigoted remarks that he does I doubt he’d still be published.

  • Paul

    Also, as far as Marcotte’s “people don’t do that in their sleep” bullshit, I once answered the phone and had half a conversation while sleeping, to the point the guy on the other end (whoever he was) had no idea I was asleep.

    So, somebody making vague “get on top of me” gestures is completely believeable to me

  • http://thedamnedoldeman.com TDOM

    I accidentally raped my girlfriend. We came home from a party where we’d been drinking, but neither of us seemed too drunk. We went to bed. She snuggled up next to me and quickly got me aroused. I responded and she inserted me into her. she was definitely an active participant and didn’t just lay there like a dead fish. In the morning, she said she was sore. I reminded her of the rather great sex we’d had. she couldn’t remember it and now she thinks I raped her because she couldn’t remeber consenting.

    I wonder what Amanda would say about that scenario, or anyone else over there for that matter. Both scenarios contain a party who was not completely aware of what he/she was doing. But I’ll bet the feminasties would call this second scenario rape without hesitation. The difference between the two scenarios is that the male in the original scenario was not even conscious. I don’t know of any state that allows sex with an unconscious participant. By definition, if was unconscious, he was raped or sexually assaulted depending on definition.

    While the female in my scenario was intoxicated, she was conscious (so was the male, by the way). In some places this would be considered rape, certainly on most college campuses. But who raped whom? It was obviously the woman who initiated the sex, but she is the one claiming not to remember and to be the victim.

    My own opinion is that it is not rape in either scenario. People aren’t mind readers. Active participation is active participation. If the parties involved feel victimized, they should obtain counseling. I’m not saying they shouldn’t feel whatever they feel. What I am saying is that in both scenarios, the partners acted and responded the way most reasonable and samne people would act. Their actions should not be criminalized.

  • Ginkgo

    The commenters on the Feministe thread did a pretty thorough job of slicing up the people who agreed with Savage in condemning the guy, the ones denying she raped him and the ones who denied a whole range of sleepwalking behaviors as real. They absolutely tore Marcotte up. Not surprising; I have seen them take the same stance before and not recently, but it’s always encouraging anyway.

  • HidingFromtheDinosaurs

    Valerie Keefe:

    Clearly, we have very different ideas of what “neckbeard” means. Have those would-be crusaders appropriated language from geek communities again, like they did with all those “bro” jokes they make so poorly (because they make them with malice)? Or does the word have some older origin of which I am unaware.

    In any case, where I am that word refers to someone who’s more likely to hold strong opinions about Transformers continuity than gender politics.

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    @HidingFromTheDinosaurs

    Neckbeard is classist, masculosexist language, implying that the target has poor hygiene (classism) and is desperately attempting to present as an alpha male that he is not (masculosexism, more commonly known as femmephobia), It’s a favoured term of unidirectionalist feminists that I have the displeasure of dealing with and I make it a point to call them on it, to their blithe dismissals, on a regular basis.

  • http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com Stoner With a Boner

    oh, and apparently Marcotte hates facial hair, I’m keeping mine if nothing else to protect me from misandry….

  • Ginkgo

    “Neckbeard is classist, masculosexist language, implying that the target has poor hygiene (classism) and is desperately attempting to present as an alpha male that he is not (masculosexism, more commonly known as femmephobia), ”

    VK, I’m missing a step here – would you explain how taunting someone about facial hair is femmephobic?

    Also “masculosexist” is new to me. I can think of a couple of things it might mean, but not very exactly.

  • http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com Stoner With a Boner

    I’m not VK, but I assume (yup, I know to assume can make an ass out of U & Me as they say) that it is femephobic because a hairy man is presumably a “hypermasculine” man as excessive facial hair can make a man look aggressive…

    Really, it could also be seen as a hatred of masculinity to dislike facial hair….

    why don’t we turn this one around on the haters and say that a woman who prefers a clean shaven man secretly desires a pre pubecent boy just like they said that a man who likes shaved pubic areas on a woman secretly desires young girls….

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    @Gingko

    Also “masculosexist” is new to me. I can think of a couple of things it might mean, but not very exactly.

    It’s viewing masculine action and presentation, not male, masculine, as more legitimate than other forms of action and presentation. I prefer it to femmephobia, because the latter pathologizes what is, simply, prejudice. It’s why I use cissexism instead of transphobia, and heterosexism instead of homophobia. The former is more accurate and less ad-hominem.

    VK, I’m missing a step here – would you explain how taunting someone about facial hair is femmephobic?

    It’s a reference to failed masculinity, basically asserting that these men don’t know how to “be men” and thus overcompensate, much in the way radfems like to fixate on trans women’s clothing and presentation.

  • http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com Danny

    Ginkgo:
    The commenters on the Feministe thread did a pretty thorough job of slicing up the people who agreed with Savage in condemning the guy, the ones denying she raped him and the ones who denied a whole range of sleepwalking behaviors as real. They absolutely tore Marcotte up. Not surprising; I have seen them take the same stance before and not recently, but it’s always encouraging anyway.
    Call me when they do so with the same tenacity that they employ when they go after men and MRAs that do the same type of denial/apologism for male rapists.

  • http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com Stoner With a Boner

    here’s a great beard…

    http://img.ultimate-guitar.com/_img/other/halloween2011/dimebag.jpg

    where’s the “overcompensation?”

  • Jared

    I’ve always heard “Neckbeard’ used more as a fashion taunt than anything really relating to gender (though for obvious reasons it is a taunt near exclusivly directed at men). I get the impression that some people are using it to refer to men whose beards are so long they completley cover their necks? IRL I’ve only ever heard it used to describe men who try to grow beards, but are only able to grow whiskers of any significance on the front of their throats creating a rather unappealing spectacle (fully acknowledging that such judgments are entriely cultural and subjective) which they nonetheless resist shaving off (primarily on account of their being lifelong geeks who always wanted to be Vikings/dwarves when they grew up; an aspiration I find wholey empathisable 😉 ). As a result I find “calling out” a neckbeard no worse than calling out a comb over; it’s not their fault that they’re in that situation, but it doesn’t take a lot of effort to fix, if you don’t mind looking ridiculous power to you, but don’t go crying about it.

    Of course, if you’ve just read what someone’s written on the internet and from that descide to call them a neckbeard, that’s quite different.

  • RocketFrog

    A) I have only heard “neckbeard” (as in the slur against specific people) used online, but that is probably because I am not from an English-speaking country. In all cases I have seen it used online, it was used to signify nerds with high dedication to some interest and with poor grasp of social convention; people who get upset over bad Star Trek episodes and who spend all their time on computer games. The only times I have seen it used with any class connotations, it was being used about software engineers, who are hardly lower-class in a socioeconomic sense. Neckbeards (as in the actual, literal facial hairstyle) are common among nerds – go to large nerd gatherings (such as, say, comic conventions , hackathons, or your local university’s computer science department), and you will be sure to see many people who have neckbeards. I always figured that the term “neckbeard” (as in the slur used against nerds) arose from this, from a widespread aspect of nerds’ fashion sense.

    B) A slur against people’s facial hair femmephobic? I am sorry, but I have difficulty interpreting this as anything but the common feminist “every gendered slur is a slur against women”, or “women are always the victim” view.

    I suppose you could make the point that nerds are “failed alphas” or “omegas” or whatever and are hated as such, but how on Earth does that translate to hatred of women, when it is actually men who are the targets of this hatred?

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/telaran JDCyran

    @Jared: I’ve only ever heard it used to describe men who try to grow beards, but are only able to grow whiskers of any significance on the front of their throats creating a rather unappealing spectacle (fully acknowledging that such judgments are entriely cultural and subjective) which they nonetheless resist shaving off (primarily on account of their being lifelong geeks who always wanted to be Vikings/dwarves when they grew up; an aspiration I find wholey empathisable 😉 ).

    I always thought the actual beard-related part of “neckbeard” was describing a guy who just lets his entire beard grow in (or at least shaves seldom enough that hair appears all over and is longer than stubble), including on the neck, rather than shaving off anything below the jaw.

    I’ve always heard it as an insult about grooming, not as a person growing a bigger beard to appear as an alpha male or more masculine. Most people I’ve heard say it (on video game forums, etc.) usually associate it with someone who is “too obsessed with video games to care about how he looks,” is “too lazy to shave,” or is “so socially awkward he doesn’t know he’s ‘supposed’ to shave his neck.”

    On the rare times I’ve had a neck beard it’s because a) I have a glorious red beard which is like fire when in sunlight, so I can tolerate it being messy for a while and b) my beard hair grows in so fast it’s a pain the ass to shave, and I don’t like rubbing a razor around on my face because it’s irritating. I’d rather look slightly unkempt than try to avoid razor burn twice a day. So I usually have a short boxed beard with ever-present, everywhere stubble that infrequently blows up into a full neckbeard when I’m feeling particularly unlike raking my neck with a sharp object or trimmer, or I when want to look like my neck and face are being eaten by fire for a couple days. 😉

  • RocketFrog

    Actually, there is one quite strong cultural association between nerds and neckbeards even in my home culture: In Danish Sign Language, the word for “nerd” is a gesture at the neck and chin, meant to evoke the image of a neckbeard.

  • Jared

    JDCyran: I’ve only heard it used for the just neck variety, but bikees are pretty big in my area, so there are certain disinsentives to making fun of full beards…

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/telaran JDCyran

    @Jared: I’ve only heard it used for the just neck variety, but bikees are pretty big in my area, so there are certain disinsentives to making fun of full beards…

    Ha! I can understand that (especially if you mean bikers). The same is true around here, given that I live in Oregon. There are full beards EVERYWHERE. It’s mostly online that I hear neckbeard jabs.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/telaran JDCyran

    Oregon, US, that is. :) Didn’t mean to be US/North America centric!

  • Jared

    “especially if you mean bikers” More or less (bikie* is more likely to refer to a gang member or associate, while a biker could be any motocyclist). I think my use of local slang (South Australian) more than conterbalances any “centrism” you might be showing! And this after deleting the part of my comment where I call you a ‘Ranga’ on account of your probably not knowing what I meant. (It’s short for Orangutan, guesss why 😉

    *I made a typo in the previous comment

  • debaser71

    I just assumed neckbeard was describing a man who doesn’t shave to sculp his beard. You know on the upper cheeks and you make a line from ear to ear on your neck. Anyway I’ve only ever heard mean spirited internet feminists use the term. And for me, I think it’s fucking hilarious. That my scruff+ annoys these people brings me great joy! It must infuriate these feminist when their pussy power equals exactly zero!

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    @Danny
    Call me when they do so with the same tenacity that they employ when they go after men and MRAs that do the same type of denial/apologism for male rapists.

    That will literally never, ever happen. People are, on some levels, a little tribal, and tend to care more about what’s happening in their world than what’s happening to other people. Acknowledgement so that they can’t get away with the victim blaming anymore is what’s needed at minimum, and we are beginning to see that.

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    Anyway, to sum up, it was just one of those things that pisses me off as a bi-directional feminist:

    When a woman refuses to shave to meet someone’s standard for how they should present, she is celebrated.

    When a man does the same, he is a neckbeard.

    And yes, whether the implication is ‘doing it wrong’ or ‘not trying’ neckbeard is a reference to failed masculinity, a failure to uphold the little image of Apollo-in-socially-appropriate-dress they walk around with in their heads.

  • Ginkgo

    “It’s viewing masculine action and presentation, not male, masculine, as more legitimate than other forms of action and presentation. I prefer it to femmephobia, because the latter pathologizes what is, simply, prejudice. It’s why I use cissexism instead of transphobia, and heterosexism instead of homophobia. The former is more accurate and less ad-hominem.”

    VK – got it; thanks, and thanks for the tie up linking it to femmephobia.

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    @Gingko
    Well, if I didn’t, plenty of my fellow feminists would gleefully continue being MeanGirls with theory. And that I can’t abide, for many reasons, including that it keeps girls like me in the closet, so you’re more than welcome.

    “Pithy quote in favour of solidarity goes here.”
    -Some cis chick, or possibly Huey Newton

  • Ginkgo

    “Anyway, to sum up, it was just one of those things that pisses me off as a bi-directional feminist:”

    This is nother good term, VK. It may very well devlop legs.

  • HidingFromtheDinosaurs

    VK:

    If it helps, imagine you’re Elizabeth Bennet and they’re your crazy mother and sisters who make people embarrassed to associate with you.

  • Tamen

    Gingko:

    The commenters on the Feministe thread did a pretty thorough job of slicing up the people who agreed with Savage in condemning the guy, the ones denying she raped him and the ones who denied a whole range of sleepwalking behaviors as real. They absolutely tore Marcotte up.

    The scenario described by the LW to Savage strikes pretty close to home for me and I admit that may have colored my impression, but my takeaway from that particular Feministe thread is not quite as rosy as yours. Marcotte was far from the only one implying or saying outright that the man was abusing/gaslighting the woman with his reaction. Plenty more said that the man’s reaction was disproportional.

    I am starting to believe we are witnessing a giant bait-n-switch from many feminists when it comes to the definitions of rape. I can’t help but wonder if this bait-n-switch is caused by the realization: “Wait, that would make me/women rapists also”. Hence we get articles shaming men who won’t do certain sex acts (questioning their motives for saying no), comments like Marcotte’s who more than suggests that the victimized man in reality is abusing the woman (who fucked him while he was asleep) and so on.

    In short, the “news” that men are also raped by women according to the rape definitions feminists and others have worked hard to establish have not lead to an acceptance of male victims, but rather in retrograde attempts to narrow the rape definitions. Intent is suddenly magic again and intent should dictate the victim’s (or rather, the gaslighting abuser’s)) feelings about what happened. I guess principles are worth shit.

  • Paul

    Tamen:

    I think you’re right about the bait-and-switch that we’re getting. It’s sort of like how Affirmative Action programs are being abandoned now that men are the ones who can qualify for them.

    i don’t recall where I read this, but I have a vague recollection that certain advocacy groups were insisting that police departments have a “cap” on the amount of female perpetrators of domestic violence they were able to prosecute each month. And that if they were finding that too many women were being arrested, it must be because the department’s methods and proceedures were faulty.

  • Clarence

    Sigh.
    Since rape DOES have a mens rea requirement what happened there is not legally rape and IF the girlfriend’s description is accurate I would not want it to be.

    What happened is that the girlfriend committed an unwitting sexual assault because of prior incidents of sex and the boyfriend having a rather unusual sleep condition.

    While I don’t judge the boyfriends reaction – unlike Savage and Marcotte- I also don’t think demonizing the girlfriend does anyone any good. I refuse to take sides on these issues based solely on feminism-versus-mra or man vs woman.

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    @Clarence:

    My comments on Feministe discuss the difference between being rape and committing rape in the first degree, just as homicide statistics report manslaughters. Someone can be raped without the person who caused the situation being a rapist, just as someone can be murdered without the person who caused the situation being a murderer.

    Rape the crime is about intent. Rape the consequence is not. Intent is not magic.

  • Clarence

    Legally, Valerie, intent IS magic when it comes to rape. Consent, after all, isn’t magic either, and I don’t want it to be. Rape should be at the top of a list of sexual assaults, not something that straddles top to bottom.

  • http://marjaerwin.livejournal.com Marja Erwin

    [potential trigger warning: sexual assault]:

    Let’s apply a reductio ad dystopiam:

    Imagine a society which devalues bodily autonomy. It has the usual fubar rape-culture narratives, and then some. Young cis males are taught to serve females, like Hercules served Omphale, but not to give up their virtue, but not to not give it up, and so on. Young cis females are taught to pursue, and pressure, and to believe that no means yes. Among het couples, these dysfunctional norms would prevent communication. A lot of people would suffer rape [and other forms of sexual assault] which the culture could not recognize as rape [or other forms of sexual assault]. One party might really believe that no meant yes [and that any erection also meant yes] and lack the intention to rape, while the other party would still be raped, and still be dealing with the trauma.

    Each definition has its place.

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    Oh good, we have Clarence discussing the varying legitimacy of certain kinds of rape… well, my day is complete in its RDA of smug obtuseness.

    The fucking justice department includes the following acts in its homicide stats:

    1st Degree Murder
    2nd Degree Murder
    Voluntary Manslaughter
    Involuntary Manslaughter.

    All of them are homicide, just as all forms of unwanted sexual activity at the hands of another are rape. Are they all Rape in the first degree? Obviously No. Get your head around that concept, or don’t, whatever, somehow I don’t see you as being a progressive force in the fight to combat rape erasure, just as someone who relishes the opportunity to say gotcha to feminists. Everybody needs a hobby.

  • elementary_watson

    @Valery Keefe: The difference is that when you wrote about killing another person, you used three different words: Murder, manslaughter, homicide. When it comes to having sex with someone who doesn’t want to, we have exactly one word, Rape, which is about as emotionally loaded as the word Murder.

    I think that is a real problem when it comes to differentiate between “rape the crime” and “rape the consequence”.

  • Clarence

    Valerie Keefe:
    As usual, you prove obtuse.
    Foul-mouthed and unpleasant, but obtuse.
    Elementary-watson gets my point.
    As do places like the Community of the Wrongly Accused.
    Want to get someone lynched? Call them a rapist. Short of “child molester”, no word or combination of words is more loathed in society.
    It’s nice that you and a few places and states with enlightened legal regimes recognize different “degrees” of rape. I can assure you that the public at large does not, nor do most US states.
    I’ve long called for the making of a series of “sexual assault” crimes that would be go below rape in a model legal code, instead of the current feminist push to get more and more crimes put under the umbrella term “rape”. This would keep the word rape for the very worst types of non-consensual sexual assaults and thus avoid a “water-down” affect. Feminists have usually been too busy calling me a “rape apologist” to even bother to listen.

  • http://valeriekeefe.tumblr.com Valerie Keefe

    @elementary_watson

    I agree, the fact that rape isn’t an irregular verb is a bit problematic.

  • TheBiboSez

    (Surrendering to the thread hijack, and adapting this post from one I just made at GLP)

    About men and morningwood (I’ve actually enjoyed “sleepy surprise sunrise sexual relations with an established bedmate): EXCEPT in the case of this young, fledgling Mangina who has internalized the lies of feminism to the point where he thinks that Feminists might approve of a MAN who barges his way into the fellowship of Our Sisters of The Perpetual Rape under the assumption that if a woman can be slightly raped, then a man might be, too.

    Even worse is idea that the unwitting rapist waif herself would actually buy into this same notion to the point where she would write to an advice columnist for clarification of her rapy ways.

    Maharlotte’s notion that the victim (male) was faking to prove some sort of a point is a clear confession that reversing the genders in this situation would be NO “legitimate” rape, either, if we credit Maharlotte with even a smidge of equalist thinking.

    At least the victims of real, brutal, random, jump-out-of-the-bushes rape can take comfort in the fact that the feminists think that a real rape’s actual physical and emotional destruction of a real victim is somehow equivalent to sleepy and unexpected morningwood sexy time between established bedmates. Same thing, same thing, right? Rape is rape, dontchaknow.

    BTW, rape me like that, anytime you want, beloved – yawn! Sleepytime now.

    And that is what the Bibo Sez.

    Bless you!

  • Equilibrium_Shift

    Hey, I left the thread here, but I wanted to clarify one thing. The man in the letter was probably not freaked out because his girlfriend fucked him while he was asleep. He was probably freaked out because he was participating. As I said, I am somnambulistic, and I too am what you might call a ‘sleepfucker’. The thing about it is, when I find out, I feel violated, and its not because of sexual contact. Its from the idea that I didn’t have control over my own body. Can you imagine it? Likely not, actually. I wake up in the morning and get to hear about what nightly adventures my body went on without me. Its freaky. Its unsettling. And the worst part about it is, you lose control of your own body… to yourself. So you start to wonder, why do I do the things I do when I am asleep? And some of the commenters were talking about their ‘waking self’ and ‘sleeping self’ or “Jekyll/Hyde”. Its true, and its very, very scary.

    So, that is likely why the guy freaked out. Getting touched by his GF might just remind him of that trauma.

    Re: Neckbeard

    Isn’t that word misandristic? The term neckbeard implies that there is a right and wrong way to be a man, which, correct me if I am wrong, is misandristic. And to claim that the implied way in which a neckbeard is wrong about being a man is that he is feminine seems factually incorrect to me. I don’t see how that word is masculosexist/femmephobic, really. It is simply good old fashioned wimp-shaming, no fear of the female required (although yes, yes, in many situations a fear of the feminine is used as a tool for wimp-shaming, it is not here).

  • Schala

    “As I said, I am somnambulistic, and I too am what you might call a ‘sleepfucker’. The thing about it is, when I find out, I feel violated, and its not because of sexual contact. Its from the idea that I didn’t have control over my own body. Can you imagine it? Likely not, actually. I wake up in the morning and get to hear about what nightly adventures my body went on without me. Its freaky. Its unsettling. And the worst part about it is, you lose control of your own body… to yourself.”

    When very drunk I can lose memories of what I’m doing. But I can reasonably remember vaguely that I did it if helped a bit.

    But if I’m more drunk than that, rolling under the table drunk. I won’t be able to walk on my own. I won’t be conscious of anything that happens (or remember any of it). And I will still be awake, possibly talking endlessly (I’ve done it last Christmas). This is the weird part.

  • EquilibriumShift

    Actually Schala, I lose the ability to make memories when drinking a lot (maybe 3-4 drinks) before I lose the ability to be a walking, talking, whirlwind of destruction and mayhem. I often wonder if the two are related. You may be a sleepwalker yourself.

  • Ginkgo

    “The thing about it is, when I find out, I feel violated, and its not because of sexual contact. Its from the idea that I didn’t have control over my own body. Can you imagine it?”

    Yes, I can imagne it.

    The difference between feeling violated over sexual contact and over loss of bodily autonomy is a distinction without a difference; both are basically about having control over your own body taken from you by someone else, aren’t they? Toysoldiers once said that he experienced being raped, repeatedly over a period of years, as a form of enslavement.

  • EquilibriumShift

    I think you are correct Gingko. It is loss of bodily autonomy to another, regardless of who that other is. The only difference is, one requires an active other, while the other is totally internal. Not sure what that difference means on a philosophical or practical level, but I want to relate it to this idea of rape not requiring a rapist. Not sure that’s a limb I would like to go out on just yet, though.

  • EquilibriumShift

    And I probably should clarify another thing: It is likely that people can’t imagine what it feels like to lose control of their autonomy to another. It is, however, probably true that anyone has has experienced it can remember it. Didn’t mean to say that my experience is a special snowflake.

  • Ginkgo

    “Didn’t mean to say that my experience is a special snowflake.”

    I didn’t take it that way. There is a difference between having actually experienced it and being able to imagine it.

  • Typhonblue

    you guys are hilarious.

    carry on.

  • Ginkgo

    Ain’t nothing funny like a sleepfucker.

  • Ginkgo

    I don’t actually mean that. It was just fun to say.