MISANDRY – The Vicious Absurdity of Pedophilia Hysteria and Some Good Responses and Counter-measures

If you had spelled it right, you mighta found the thread. 😛 It’s Sheelzebub.

Is this it? I can’t find the comment of hers you refer to, though: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/18/salon-flubs-reporting-on-child-predators/

Oooh, the ‘Creep’ thread, I’m on that one under a different name (not sam, fyi). It boggles me how they can raise the severity of making a woman uncomfortable to tantamount to socking her in the jaw in one sentence, then laugh about how they don’t care if they’re hurting men’s “feeeeelings” in the next, and not even get that they might be mucking up. That ’empathy apartheid’ strikes again.

Of course if you point this out it means that you’re defending ‘creep’ behaviour, which is suddenly following women home and unwanted touching, as oppossed to the previous examples of any unwelcome interaction that make the woman uncomfortable for any reason.

Good lord that creep thread. One one hand it’s like “Well yeah, some people call people creeps for dumb reasons, but F*CK YOU, IT’S TOTALLY NOT SUBJECTIVE”.

Wat? They’ll admit that there are sometimes that you literally cannot avoid being called creepy or a creep or creeper (alas, that will always make me think of Minecraft), but it’s still your fault you were called that and only you can fix forest fires — I mean being called a creep.

There is no winning. I think there is blindness about how toxic maleness is perceived as being and how they only find it a threat because they’ve had it ingrained in them that it’s a threat. Someone touching my shoulder is weird, but I don’t think it’s a threat of being raped. It’s that whole hyperinflation and fear of relatively infrequent stranger rape. I mean hell, the “creeper” touching you is probably more likely to have been part of the 1 in 6 than a stranger-rapist.

The last interaction with someone I knew that had a sort of creepy personality was years back, and that’s because he forced religion stuff on me, made me high five him randomly, and would not leave me alone unless I smiled, even the day after my dog of 11 years died. Also he played saxophone terribly in a manner reminiscent of Kenny G, and that is auto creep-points. I don’t think he was ASD, but he was really bad at social cues. A bit like a turkey in human form. I felt pity for him more than anything. And I say this as the sibling of an ASD man who people avoid simply because he has a lazy eye and literally cannot maintain eye contact.

Commenting on this will just make me angry. btw, I refuse to fly anymore. Between TSA, moronic rules, and harassment from thuggish men with automatic weapons. It ain’t worth it.

Skidd,
“It’s that whole hyperinflation and fear of relatively infrequent stranger rape.”

That’s the damsel popse, part of toxic femininity.

Hi, Hector,
“Read the comments if you have a high tolerance to nausea.”

I am limiting my intake fof toxins these days, so thanks for the warning. And thanks for monitoring that stuff. Those people need to be exposed.

Daisu, I agree with your advice to Sam, but liie eagle, I think those people are basically trapped in an eternal high school.undergraduate world of cliques and orthodoxies and all that childish bullshit that I talked about in my Cow post.

I go to the zoo, but it is to look at the animals, not to argue with them. Look at the degree of success you had with them.

Wow, I should have known better than to read the comment thread on that “creep” article. The way people will seamlessly slide from discussing “socially clueless” to “behavior or body language makes me uncomfortable” to “crosses physical boundaries even after I’ve said no” almost makes me ill.

If a man can objectively be accused of or considered a bad person for making someone subjectively uncomfortable prior to it being expressed that he was doing so (particularly when it comes to social rather than physical boundaries), then one is essentially arguing that men interested in being good should be removing themselves from society – because there is no way to always guarantee that you will not make someone uncomfortable (except perhaps to be so spectacularly attractive in demeanor and appearance that you couldn’t be viewedasa threat).

In a similar vein, I almost think you could look at men-near-children paranoia as an argument that good men should be avoiding children – demonizing men when it comes to being around others children is an easier fight than demonizing men for interacting with their own, but to the same effect.

As far as the creep thread goes, I think it’s all but impossible to have a good faith discussion about the term with anyone who views Men as enough of a monolith that any individual boundary violations are viewed as representative of all Men. You can’t argue that the term is applied to even those with good intentions who *would* adjust their behavior or back off if told, if the person doesn’t believe Men like that exist.

I wonder how some of the more hostile commenters would react if I mentioned that the one time a Woman told me my presence was creeping her out at a bar, I stopped going to any bar in that town or several surrounding towns, because since I hadn’t even approached her, I had no behavior that I could fix or boundary I could be more careful of – indeed, I almost concluded that the ethical thing to dowasto avoid any bars at all, rather than just the ones she might be at – it took me a solid month to properly recover, I was so concerned with being “good”. I suspect rather than empathy, some of the people commenting would argue that I *did* do the right thing… talk about an empathy apartheid!

“I wonder how some of the more hostile commenters would react if I mentioned that the one time a Woman told me my presence was creeping her out at a bar, I stopped going to any bar in that town or several surrounding towns, because since I hadn’t even approached her, I had no behavior that I could fix or boundary I could be more careful of – indeed, I almost concluded that the ethical thing to dowasto avoid any bars at all, rather than just the ones she might be at – it took me a solid month to properly recover, I was so concerned with being “good”. I suspect rather than empathy, some of the people commenting would argue that I *did* do the right thing… talk about an empathy apartheid!”

Tovsain, welcome if I haven’t welcomed you before.

The ethical thing to do in that case would have ben to make a show of ignoring her. The ethical thing to do when you confront bigtory is to confront it back and not indulge, if that is in your capacity.

Her reaction was not ideology, it was pathology. The only way to deal with is to try to stay healthy yourself and ot insist on maintaining that in the face of her dsitorted perceptions.

There was a time and not too long ago when the mere presence of black people creeped white people out to the point that blalck people were barred frorm establishments serving white people.

What if I decided that the presence of prostitutes creeped me out, and that given the way straight men are expected to buy straight women drinks just to be allowed tot talk to them for “the pleasure of their company” this is not really a very lax use of the legal term prostitution, that all women should stay away from bars that men patronize so they didn’t creep me out?

@elementary_watson

Thanks.

I suppose I meant more that if presented with a hypothetical situation, they would probably describe my course of action – “make sure you never find yourself in that situation again, whatever it takes”.

In retrospect, I can’t believe I posted that story. I think I just wanted to highlight that extending creep shaming from situations that involve acting with agency to situations that involve nothing but subjective perceptions (“he didn’t do anything except make me uncomfortable” ) it implies having the power to declare with a single word that a man should remove himself from society.

@Daisy:

Thread: Don’t want to be called a creeper? Don’t be creepy.
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/08/12/dont-want-to-be-called-a-creeper-dont-be-creepy/

Wow, good find. I’m really, really tempted to go over there and leave a comment that says, “Don’t want to be called a slut? Don’t be slutty.” But I think it’s best if I refrain.

Incidentally, Sam is male. I know him from back in the day when Clarisse Thorn still had her manliness threads going (now those were good examples of good-faith, productive discussions and disagreements).

@Ginkgo “Tovsain, welcome if I haven’t welcomed you before.”

I think I’ve been welcomed before, since I know I’ve commented – though I may have also posted a comment or two under another name (I used to switch handles every few months, as a side effect of a bad stalking incident. Sorry!)

@elementary Watson
“You could have followed it more closely, you shouldn’t have waited for that advice before following it, you shouldn’t express your unhappiness resulting from following that advice, you shouldn’t think for one second that following this advice means that you are a Good Man, since you still haven’t stopped the rape of women, have you?”

@Ginkgo
“The ethical thing to do in that case would have ben to make a show of ignoring her. The ethical thing to do when you confront bigtory is to confront it back and not indulge, if that is in your capacity.”

Sorry for replying to you two simultaneously – but I used to have a tendacy to view morality on an individual level. Sort of a “first have no negative impact on other people” attitude. If a given “Action Y” results in a negative impact on Person X, I don’t think it’s wrong to say that “Action Y” is inconsiderate.

If I met someone with PTSD who was really freaked out by loud noises, I would consider it inconsiderate to make loud noises in their presence after I found out about that. I might not consider it a moral imperetive to avoid loud noises – but I would without hesitation argue that making loud noises *after finding out about the PTSD* would be inconsiderate and rude. If I met a rape victim who was freaked out by people making jokes about Men always being up for sex, I would avoid comments that would trigger that. I don’t view any of that as wrong – I would *want* to be the kind of person who behaves that way. The real issue lies in stereotypes and preconceptions that feed “Male sexuality is hostile” attitudes.

So on a very basic level, I think “X action makes Y person uncomfortable, I should avoid X action around Y person” is legitimately the appropriate response of a concerned individual. The problem with labels like “creep” or “pedophile” is that they often aren’t action/agency based, but are based on subjective reactions that have a lot to do with non-offensive behaviors.

According to AVFM (scroll down to a comment from Paul Elam near the bottom), whoever made the bogus copyright claim against GWW has withdrawn their complaint.

The “creep” thing is why (together with a few other things, most notably the demonization of shy, awkward, or unmasculine men in the whole “Nice Guy TM” discourse), even if I had no particular interests in gender issues or men’s rights, I’d still consider most online feminism an implacable enemy as an autistic man.

I’ve never made an intrusive, inappropriate, or unwanted sexual advance on a woman in my life, and I can say that with absolute confidence because I’ve never made any sexual advance on a woman. I’ve never intruded on a woman’s physical boundaries because, outside a very small circle of people (which has no females other than a few blood relatives) I don’t touch or even move close to people if I can avoid it.

I am, however, noticeably abnormal. My tone of voice and facial expression don’t usually reflect emotions unless I consciously make them do so. I have weird tics and weird facial expressions and shake a lot. I don’t look people in the eye. I walk funny. Sometimes it looks like I’m staring at something because I’m lost in thought and haven’t noticed that something has entered my visual field. My voice has an unpleasantly jerky, start-stop quality in most social situations unless I concentrate on preventing it. If a character looked and moved like me in a movie, he’d probably turn out to be either a serial killer or the host body of something trying to impersonate a human being and not quite pulling it off.

I’m sure many people would find me weird or unsettling, especially when I’m not actively trying to pass- creepy, in other words. If, God forbid, I’d ever attempted the sort of social interactions normal for most young people in the United States, I’m sure plenty of those women in the links- and women in general- would have felt quite righteous about calling me a creep. Because seeing- or worse, being spoken to by- something like me would be distasteful to them, which might make them uncomfortable, and that’s all it takes. They’re fighting tooth and nail to legitimize vilifying me for being born as what I am, whether I’m doing anything wrong or not. They’re advocating a system of values where it would be wrong for someone like me to so much as speak to- hell, even be in the vicinity of- a woman, lest I make her uncomfortable. They despise my kind at least as much as the “patriarchy”does.

I wonder how many autistic men and boys, knowing that they’re not what most people think a man should be, look to feminism because they’ve been told that feminists don’t hate and abuse men who fail to fit in with traditional masculinity- and run into shit like that. And believe it. Even if I had no interest in men’s issues as such, that’s something I would never, ever forgive.

interesting little tidbit about the children of divorce….

http://www.bakadesuyo.com/whats-the-single-strongest-predictor-you-will-38240?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In case you’re interested, I’ll be performing Episode Five of my serial play “Speak To Me” on SAturday, August 18th, 2012 at 10am Pacific Time, 1pm Eastern Time, 6pm UK Time and Sunday, August 19th, 2012 4am Australian Time.

You can listen to it here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/autistic-people-/2012/08/18/radio-drama-speak-to-me-v–10am-pst

If you miss the performance, it’ll be available as a podcast one hour after the live performance. The link will still take you there.

I apologise for threadjacking, but this is absurd.

http://feministcurrent.com/4248/can-i-get-a-fk-you-why-erections-are-always-right-and-feminists-are-always-wrong/

In less than two paragraphs, she conflates male sexuality to war, murder and cancer. Stay classy, radfems.

John Markley,

I am an autistic man who did spend considerable time in my youth among (a fairly radical fringe of) feminists, in no small part because I grew up in a feminist environment (which contained many different kinds of feminists, ranging from gender egalitarian humanists to some rather extreme misandrists).

My experiences match yours almost to an uncanny degree. So, by the way, does my externally visible symptoms. In my early 30’s I finally managed to get my voice modulation to sound almost completely normal, however, although still only if I put some effort into it. I am frequently very, very tired and drained after having spent time interacting with people.

Unfortunately, I have a rather weak mental constitution at the best of times, and I would sometimes do things like impose voluntary curfews on myself to avoid infringing on women’s security; I reasoned that my mere presence in public was enough to make women perceive a rape-threat, and so I kept myself indoors except to manage bare necessities. I imposed many rules upon myself as to lessen the offense and threat I might cause women. I have done these things in multiple periods in the past (usually when I am not doing well with my depressive disorder), despite sometimes thinking that it is all absurd. It was a female (and self-identified feminist) friend of mine who explained to me that thinking that all women require men like me to make that kind of personal sacrifices was not only absurd, but in fact insulting to most women except for a few extremists, who it was impossible to satisfy anyway.

To be honest, I find a lot of gender debate absurd. But these things matter to a lot of people, and I try my best to not be offensive or oppressive (or to call too much attention to myself), and so I sometimes ended up taking some rather extreme “precautions”.

Perhaps the most radical was in my late teens and early twenties, where I dreamed of being castrated or nullified to get rid of my sexual drive and needs (I am unfortunately heterosexual), and to take myself out of what I believed to be a class that was oppressive by its mere public presence.

As I have said in the past, it would probably, however, not be wise to blame feminism for the failings and sufferings of a disabled man with multiple psychiatric diagnoses.

But when all is said and done, my experience was that the kind of gender enforcement that can be so hard on autistic men was – at least in my particular case – carried out very, very vigilantly by feminists, much more so than I ever encountered in the mainstream. When I, in my youth, was still trying to attract a romantic and/or sexual mate, it was much harder for me to be denounced as a creep, oppressor and potential predator than to just get laughed at for playing outside my allotted league.

Re: “Creep” and Ableism/Neurodiversity

I’ve got a brother, 20 years old, who fairly obviously has an ASD, as well as some other learning disorders. I got into neurodiversity movement partly because of him, and partly because of my own ADD. (I stim, mostly with my feet, but I get comments on my stimming. My brother stims mostly with his hands). I worry for my brother that he’s going to have it hard in life with social interaction. He has a phobia of not living up to expectations. He has panic attacks and sometimes can have a disconcerting gaze because in addition to not meeting your eyes (he’ll stare a little bit above your shoulder), he has a lazy eye that makes him a little wall-eyed. We live in Utah, which is obviously surrounded by the patriarchal, family-oriented Mormon culture, which may limit his future options further. He’s never been on a date or expressed interest in dating – he’s mostly become a homebody. For all I know, he could be ace, but I don’t know, and I worry for his social awkwardness in his life to come.

But then again, sometimes I can’t read social cues very well, either. How was I supposed to know that church ladies didn’t want to hear about how african wild dogs kill by disemboweling. I get too into my zoology/ethology stuff.

But as a twentysomething girl, I have all the empathy in the world for ASD men. It’s a tough life. It’s a tough life for all ASD people, even if you’re like Nikola Tesla or Satoshi Taijiri. And yeah, breaking the “creepy-autist” thing is important in neurodiversity. Or creepy anything. Someone with a tic disorder or other issue will have similar social issues. It’s much more an issue with invisible disabilities/disorders/differences than with obviously visible ones.

I think some people need to step back and not EVERYTHING that makes them say “something feels wrong” is “something is dangerous here”. It’s like… the term uncanny valley? Like, for instance, this is something I had to work on personally, but sometimes trans women will involuntarily give me the “uncanny valley” vibe – something felt off. But that doesn’t mean I’m in danger. I made (and am making) a conscious effort to get over this.

Violations of human social norms sometimes will have this sort of effect in other people – but honestly? Predators are typically, in my limited experience, the kind of people with excellent social skills to walk and talk their way into situations. They are convince-ers and fast talkers. ASD or neurodivergent people aren’t really very threatening at all – but I grew up with one and it’s all really normal to me. Not everyone has that experience growing up to be around neurodivergent people, and much like children who grew up without exposure to other races who are nervous around people of other races, there’s a lack of imprinting that neurodivergent behavior is okay and non-threatening.

There is creep-by-dangerous-behavior and creep-by-xenophobia. I am okay with people calling “creep” at the first, not at the second. And yes, calling creep for non-threatening non-normative behavior associated with neurodiversity is xenophobic. (Using xenophobic in a sense of “afraid/bigoted against outgroups”)

Hey, Danny – good to see you! I thought you were mad at me or something.

Ozy is fighting the good fight on this. Look at the shit for comments this guy gets, from one commenter in particular:
http://hetpat.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/discrimination-plane-and-simple/
http://hetpat.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/plane-and-simple-updates/

Here’s a especially revealing piece of one of those comments:

“Bitethehand
On the other hand you “vile corrupting men” might just take time to read the conditions of service of the airline on which you choose to fly.

I’m sure there must be airlines – try Biman, that will offer a “superior male” experience that’s far more to your liking.”

Danny, tell me, can you think of a historical parallel for this kind of sentiment?

Oh nah Ginkgo. I wasn’t mad at your or anything. I’ve just been mad busy lately. Things are picking up at my job, car troubles are plaguing me, I’m one of only three moderators at GMP, trying to get active again in a writer’s circle I joined via facebook, STARTED SEEING SOMEONE, started the basics on trying to organize an anime convention something in 2014, trying to play Skyrim and LA Noire, and having a million post ideas in my head.

Quite busy indeed.

That comment doesn’t surprise me at all on this Virgin Air thing. Funny men want to be treated with basic respect and it’s regarded as a demand for superior treatment. But as for a historical parallel? If you’re thinking what I think you’re thinking then I must say, “Well at least he wasn’t asked to sit at the back of the plane and could not be served drinks from the ‘women only’ cooler.”

Skidd,

Like your brother, I mostly stim with my hands, although I also perform a number of whole-body movements. I also sometimes have vocal tics (although that was much more prevalent in my childhood; I would make a number of weird noises). When in public I try not to, but I do not always remember (because there are so many other things to also be mindful about to avoid offending people). I also have an odd gait. Also like your brother, I have spent a long time being absolutely obsessed with not living up to expectations (expectations that I frequently do not really understand), especially the expectations of women.

When I was in my late teens, I was also sometimes thought to be ace, although I am in fact heterosexual. I tended to avoid the subject, because I knew that my knowledge and understanding of it was embarassingly poor, because I had little to say about it (due to said lack of knowledge and understanding) and found conversations on the subject incredibly awkward, and because thinking about it causes me considerable psychological pain.

It still does. In fact, my sexuality is the primary source of pain and despair in my life, and I really wish it would just go away. I sometimes wish I could be castrated or nullified and that that would make it go away, or that there was some way to turn myself asexual. Sadly, I think that a non-asexual person trying to turn himself into an asexual person would probably lead to much the same results as when religious fundamentalists try to turn homosexual people into heterosexual people: Pain and failure. I know that most women find men like me, at best, pitiable. I have ended up in a “Nice Guy” situation more often than I would like to admit (given how Nice Guys are considered entitled oppressors).

I know that there is nothing I can do to make myself less unattractive; the mental health workers I have worked with seem to all agree that I have probably reached the peak of the level of social functioning I can possibly hope to (I have managed to find a job, I live in my own apartment, and I even have a friend I occasionally see). I have opted out, because for me, it seems that the “mating game” is much like tic-tac-toe and global thermonuclear warfare: The only winning move is not to play. If women consider me so loathsome, why would it be acceptable of me to want to inflict myself upon them? Obviously, it is not.

I had a girlfriend once, who was ashamed of being seen with me in public, and who would frequently remind me that she could get a real man if she wanted to. I was not good enough for her, and I knew that all too well. In fact I think I inadvertently deceived her; she thought I was someone I am not, capable of things that I am not, so it is only natural that she came to despise me once she discovered what I am.

And this is why I hate my sexuality and want it to go away, and why I never ever talk about it except when reasonably anonymous (and I was not even able to do that until I was about 30). The whole subject is so full of shame for me that I find it hard to even consider. It is as if I have desires and needs that I am biologically incapable of satisfying; women are “creeped out” by me when I am at my absolutely best behaviour. Even my former girlfriend openly told me that she never ever felt attracted to me. I think it is impossible to be attracted to someone like me.

I have accepted that this particular part of life is not for men like me, but that does not mean I like that particular fact. Most of the time, it largely feels like I am just dragging myself through the days, hoping that there will soon not be any more days left. I have sometimes considered suicide, but I will not do so, because I know my family and one aforementioned friend would blame themselves, and I would never want them to do so. When I was younger, I was better at distracting myself with various projects, but recently I have found it difficult to focus (which is downright frightening to me, since focus is basically all I ever had).

I agree with your analysis of the creep thread; it is much like my own thoughts on the subject, given in my previous post.

On the topic of the airline pedo policy… is anybody else waiting for the day the policy forces them to move a minority male away from a white child?

I’m utterly fascinated to see whose shit hits that fan first.

@RocketFrog: As I’ve said before your ex was a text book psychological abuser. You shouldn’t think that anything she said or did reflects on you as a person. It doesn’t.

[blockquote]”In fact I think I inadvertently deceived her; she thought I was someone I am not, capable of things that I am not, so it is only natural that she came to despise me once she discovered what I am.[/blockquote]

And you just so happened to be someone good natured enough and prone enough to self blame to allow her to carry out her abuse? No, I think she knew exactly what she was getting.

HidingFromTheDinosaurs:

I can pass for neurotypical better than most autistics (after a lot of work, I can speak without stuttering, look people in the eye, initiate normal conversations and go without any kind of stimulation to my hands for extended periods when I have to), but in some ways that just makes the things I can’t do even more of a problem than they would be otherwise because people I meet have no cues at all that I might have difficulty interpreting their signals or with certain types of interaction.

I personally think that a lot of my own hard work in trying to “pass” sometimes makes me more creepy. Skidd mentions the “uncanny valley” – I think that all my work has taken me out of “obviously mentally disabled” territory and into “uncanny valley” territory. It is probably easier for people to feel at ease if the weird guy in the corner is obviously autistic than if something unidentified is just unnervingly “off” about him.

As for bars and clubs, I hate typical clubs; too many people, usually lots of smoke and a temperature that would put a sauna to shame, too loud bad music, people behaving bizarrely. I get anxiety attacks in such places. When I still drank alcohol, I frequented quieter bars. I sometimes like to sit somewhere else than my apartment; I know a few cafes that I occasionally drink coffee at.

(the closest I have to a “normal” social life is sitting by myself in a public place with a book or a laptop. But that is not so bad. I have a friend and some family members who meet most of my (admittedly rather Spartan) social needs, and whose own needs are understandable enough for me to have a chance of not being a complete disappointment).

I’ve never made advances to anyone and I’ve never discussed sex or sexuality in person with anyone (I don’t think I’ve ever really had that sort of discussion openly outside of this site).

Me neither. I am afraid of bringing up the subject. This is why I mentioned it with regard to Skidd’s brother – I do not know if he is asexual or not, but I do know that people have thought I was, because I never talk about sex or sexuality (except in the quasi-anonymity here). Even people I trust, who know all sorts of ugly personal details about me, I do not feel safe talking about those things with.

As for making advances to someone, I have absolutely no idea how. I could invite someone on a date if I felt so inclined, but I could never take it beyond that point.

Same here. Asking someone out is just some words, I can do that. But escalating it beyond me getting the privilege of buying coffee or food for someone is something I cannot do; I have no idea how. It seems dependent on a good command of nonverbal communication that I simply do not possess.

I have sometimes told women, many years ago, if I had romantic feelings for them. Reactions ranged from polite bemusement to laughter and public humiliation. Later, I gave up. As I have said before, my conclusion is that it is a game that I can only lose in.

I feel a strong desire to have a relationship, but society seems dead set against the sort of relationship I would find safe or fulfilling and there really don’t seem to be many people out there who have enough in common with me for it to work out, anyway (you’d think comic books or video games would be the sticking point, but a real interest in reading and literature seems to be much harder to find).

In my case, most of my interests are so stereotypically geeky-male that any woman who likes such things will have a huge selection of single geeky males to choose from, most of them superior (in the sense of “able to live up to women’s expectations and meet their requirements”) to me.

Oddly enough, I feel a much stronger longing for non-sexual physical contact than for sex, although I believe I have a normal libido.

I have no idea if mine is normal.

When I am lying alone in my bed at night feeling lonely and empty, what I miss is not someone to have sex with, it is someone to hold me and for me to hold and all those things. I think it is TyphonBlue who has sometimes written about men being “touch-deprived” or “touch-starved”, and that seems to me to be a good description of what I feel.

And I hate it, because I have needs that I know I am incapable of ever satisfying.

Paul:
That’s simple. The racism charge will trump the sexism charge and it will also trump any “but it’s for the children” complaints. On the victimology hierarchy in the US, race comes first, which is why racism is a bigger sin than sexism, and why most white feminists are wary to attack (even the arguably true) misogynistic elements in black pop culture. I think it has been Gingko, or maybe even Daisy, who posited that white feminists merely “piggybacked” the civil rights movement. So if it was a US airline the answer would be simple.

To be fair, this airline is in New Zealand if I recall and I don’t know the victimology hierarchy there, but I do know that in Great Britain racial grievance seems to trump all, and NZ was a part of the commonwealth at one time and for all I know might still be.

Ginkgo,

It is not really as if I have much of a choice.

If I met someone I was compatible with, A) I would not have the slightest idea what to do (and as a man in my particular culture, I am expected to), and B) she would easily be able to get a better man anyway. As I said – there are many more single men of my particular type than there are women who want anything to do with that particular type.

You are right though that self-torture and starvation are also not viable options. This is why I have spent many years trying to figure out a way to get rid of my sexuality altogether, ideally without having to resort to unlicensed surgery or illegal substances. Unfortunately, I do not think it can be done.

By the way, it was not me who broke up with her, it was her who broke up with me. She is currently in an apparently successful relationship (which reinforces my view that it was obviously me who was the problem).

I realized when all the feminist writers called Glen on Mad Men a “creep”–that I must like the creeps. I have always liked quiet boys, and I like the character on Mad Men. I’m still not sure why they call him a creep, but it seems to be a consensus:

“Mad Men” viewers have been increasing creeped out by Glen Bishop in Season 5, which ends Sunday, June 10 at 10 p.m. ET. The character has been giving AMC viewers the chills since he first stared at Betty Draper (January Jones) in the bathroom and asked for a lock of her hair five years ago.

Though the fact has never been hidden, the actor’s relationship to Weiner seems to be earning more attention as of late. Weiner explained his decision to cast his son — who had never acted before “Mad Men” — in the widely despised role in a March interview with NPR.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/10/glen-mad-men-matt-weiner-son-marten_n_1584937.html

Widely despised? He is? Well damn, I have always found him one of the most interesting characters on the show… I love when he leaves the gift for Sally on her pillow after trashing the rest of the house. I had boyfriends like that! LOL

Really, it says a lot about our culture that he is considered creepy and he is the one who takes Sally’s side. (Free Sally Draper!)

So RocketFrog, please think it over okay? (the t-shirt idea) You might attract a nice (but perhaps loud and/or crazy) girl like me, who thinks creeps are cool and interesting. 😀

How about a T-shirt that says “If you thinkI’m a creep, what does that say about you?”

I know it’s pretty poor logic, but it’s passive-aggressive as hell. A low blow like that is likely to land a hitt and put a stop on someone.

debaser,

I was thinking the same thing.

(and I do not live in a quiet peaceful neighbourhood.)

Ginkgo,

If she were compatible with you, she would probably not be as compatible with him, whoever he was, than with you. That’s the thing about compatibility.

The USB port on my computer is compatible with a large range of devices, for example USB-connected external hard drives. But if I had the choice, I would prefer a quiet 1 TB drive to a noisy 200 GB clunker, even though my computer is compatible with both.

Is this analogy too strained, or do you understand what I mean?

I can think of at least one feminist blog where that would be immediately labeled ableism and victim-blaming, and they would be right.

Even NSWATM has defended the use of “creep”, but you are probably right that a feminist blog exists that would not accept it.

I think the problem is that, as I said above, “creep” has multiple meanings, one of which is “sexual harasser”, the other is “someone who is disturbingly non-typical in public”.

I am not sure if I would call NSWATM “faux-masculist”. At least they are trying to consider a male perspective on gender issues too, although sometimes they screw up. I am less friendly towards the GMP in general.

What I meant about my analogy is that I am an all-but-worthless option who nobody – even someone “compatible” with me – would want, if they can get something better. And nearly all women can. If a woman happens to like science fiction and computer nerds, why settle for a highly defective one, like me, if there are nine better ones to choose from too? (in my USB drive analogy: why go for the noisy 200GB clunker if you can get a quiet 1TB drive?)

Well, to my knowledge, NSWATM never exactly kept it a secret that it was first and foremost a feminist space – albeit one that tried to keep a focus on men (as much as that is possible while still remaining feminist – I know some feminists will argue that focusing on men means that it cannot be feminist by definition).

They banned me for my periodic slips into extreme misandry (which is arguably an understandably bannable offense on a purported masculist site) when my depressive disorder gets the best of me, and because Noah thought I was a troll. I hold no grudge against them for that.

There were several feminist critics active on NSWATM threads (at least before they became part of TGMP), like dungone and debaser. That the bloggers themselves never criticized feminism is hardly surprising – they were feminists themselves, after all (and never kept this a secret).

As for all the male commenters leaving – Noah is still around, as far as I know, except he is busy as editor of TGMP and only posts very rarely, so the only regular blogger left is Ozy, who is trans.

But yes – sometimes they do drop the ball. That “dating tips for short dudes” was awful and demeaning, for instance.

Just for the record, I’m pretty sure that Ozy identifies as non-binary and/or gender-queer, which is something completely different from trans.

RocketFrog:
Probably not. But I have a history of being considered at best unsuitable, at worst downright repugnant by women, which indicates that something is wrong.
It could just mean that you haven’t found a compatible woman yet. Let me ask a flip situation again. If we were talking about a woman who said that she considered herself, “at best unsuitable, at work downright repugnant by men” I think there would be a lot of people that would downright declare that the guys that found her repugnant were the problem, not her.

Perhaps I am gullible, but I think that feminists in general – particularly the ones who frequently talk about intersectionality – do not actually harbor animosity towards marginalized groups of men.
They don’t as long as they can maintain a strict separation between “marginalization” and “male”. That is how you can have feminists that simultaneously get in an uproar about the majority of the prison population being men but then say that gender has nothing to do with why men kill themselves more often than women. Oh I just thought of a good one.

Gingko, how many times have you come across feminists that will argue until Smurfed in the face in order to keep homophobia against men limited to sexual orientation and sexual orientation only while happily blurring sexual orientation and gender together when talking about homophobia against gay women? (Or better yet. How often do we hear the word misogyny tossed about when talking about homophobia against gay women but will actively avoid the word misandry when talking about homophobia against gay men?)

The USB port on my computer is compatible with a large range of devices, for example USB-connected external hard drives. But if I had the choice, I would prefer a quiet 1 TB drive to a noisy 200 GB clunker, even though my computer is compatible with both.

Is this analogy too strained, or do you understand what I mean?
Even if that 1TB drive crashes every other weekend requiring a reformat while that 200GB clunker has been running nonstop perfectly for over 10 years?

I think the problem is that, as I said above, “creep” has multiple meanings, one of which is “sexual harasser”, the other is “someone who is disturbingly non-typical in public”.
I have to disagree a bit. If the problem was that creep has multiple uses they would at least be willing to try to alter the lingo to split them apart. If they can redefine sexism, patriarchy, privilege and a whole host of other words this shouldn’t be hard. Besides how many of them actually acknowledge that one can be called a creep on unfair grounds? I remember an article Schwyzer did a while back where the point of the article was to say that misuse of the word creep was a myth put forth by men that were trying to silence women from using it. I don’t recall too many feminists (maybe the ones that hang out over at GMP where it was posted but that’s about it) lining up to correct him and say that indeed it is misused sometimes. Beyond Clarisse Thorn and Ozy on a good day a lot of feminists have firmly declared that creep is NEVER misused by women towards men.

What I meant about my analogy is that I am an all-but-worthless option who nobody – even someone “compatible” with me – would want, if they can get something better. And nearly all women can. If a woman happens to like science fiction and computer nerds, why settle for a highly defective one, like me, if there are nine better ones to choose from too? (in my USB drive analogy: why go for the noisy 200GB clunker if you can get a quiet 1TB drive?)
A touch of science fiction right? Think of it this way. When it comes to old clunkers sometimes they really are the better option.
1. When Han Solo beat Lando in Sabacc, Lando actively tried to give him a more advanced ship just so he wouldn’t take the Millenium Falcon.
2. In the Firefly episode, “Out of Gas” Mal has a flashback to when he overlooked more popular and higher performance ships and chose that one.
3. And who can forget that episode of Star Trek TNG where future Riker bragged about how the Enterprise was due for decommission but as an Admiral he gets to pick his own ship, overriding the decommission orders.

Gingko:
Their knee-jerk refusal to entertain any discussion of feminsm in any ind of negative way, neither for its misandry or for its social and legal adverse effects on men is another.
I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that. It’s not that they don’t want anyone to speak of the ills of feminism. I think it’s more of speaking of the ills of feminism is only allowed in a sense of, “Yeah we know there are some bad parts out there but we have already acknowledged that so why spend time bringing it up?” My point is it is allowed but only under an extremely limited scope as if to put up the illusion that all the negative parts of feminism have been accounted for and anyone that brings them up outside of that scope is just complaining. You can see this back in that “Misconceptions of Feminism” post Ozy did a while back. Oh feminists descended on that like a horde of locusts to tell everyone how unfair, mischaracterizing, and possibly misleading it was. I wonder where all that talk was when Marcotte was running free across GMP.

RocketFrog:
That the bloggers themselves never criticized feminism is hardly surprising – they were feminists themselves, after all (and never kept this a secret).
Eh I wouldn’t quite say they never criticized it. But more like I said above it’s done in a very limited way. Almost like they are more afraid of pissing off too many feminists than they are wanting to actually listen to and work with guys.

@RocketFrog: Okay, didn’t know that. It was ozy’s insistence on non-gendered pronouns when referring to zir that made me think zie was non-binary.

My understanding was also that they were not mutually exclusive terms.

My point was just that even if NSWATM was “faux-masculist” because most of its male bloggers have left, then it needs to be pointed out that the remaining bloggers do not include even a single cis woman: There is one trans nonbinary and one man.

@Schala: Okay, I stand corrected. (Even though I wonder: Can one be cis and non-binary? If so, I really got some logical problems with those concepts …)

“@Schala: Okay, I stand corrected. (Even though I wonder: Can one be cis and non-binary? If so, I really got some logical problems with those concepts …)”

Yes, you can also.

I’m trans in large part because I’ve altered my hormonal regimen drastically, though I’m also binary. Were I non-binary but still preferring female hormonal cocktails out of some other reason than identity (ie convenience?), I’d be a trans non-binary. I’m trans because I identify as female while I was identified as male at birth.

And I could have not altered my hormonal cocktail at all too – but you can’t have a neutral one. Either hormone is dominant, or you suffer osteoporosis as a matter of course. You could also have other ills. Having equal amounts of each would cancel each other out, leaving you without enough nutriments, and wasting your cholesterol-conversion metabolism (all sex hormones are derived from cholesterol – testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, they only differ in their molecular complexity by 1 each (23 cholesterol, 22 testosterone, etc))

I’m starting to lean towards the assertion that they understand this and either don’t care or it’s a part of their intent. It sounds grim but I think it’s true.(Danny)

This sums up that idea……..”If you truly want to test a person’s character, give them power.”

I think it also actually matters if one goes to a public demonstration and shares photos of other black men, as I did… I also did several posts in detail about the “Stand Your Ground” laws here in SC, and made sure people knew about the casualties that have resulted, so far ALL male. I did radio shows about it, had black men and political organizers as guests.

But hey, I ain’t cool. I am old enough to be Ozy’s mother. Never mind Carry on.

http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/03/rally-photos-i-am-trayvon-martin.html

http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/04/more-on-stand-your-ground-laws.html

I am once again back on moderation at Feministe… I think likely due to traffic from this thread.

As long as I didn’t try to comment there on other posts, they usually let me plug my posts on “Shameless self promotion Sunday”… but after this thread? Busted.

(sigh)

Daisy:
Please either do as I suggested and actually look at the evidence or be silent about it.
I mean , seriously, you can’t even get the conversation straight on the telephone call to the “311” line ( it was neither a cop nor a 911 operator who was talking to him, despite sloppy news reports and such sloppiness being carried all over the blogosphere). I’ll correct you just this once:
A. He called the “non-emergency line”, not 911. Even had it been 911, neither a 911 operator nor a 311 operator has any legal authority to give you an order whatsoever.
B. The exact wording was “we don’t need you to do that”. Doesn’t exactly sound like an order even had Zimmerman been talking to a cop. Zimmerman’s defense would be that he was looking for the address or the location of Martin (i.e, in other words in what direction he was running), and that as soon as he heard it was not necessary he turned around to go back when he encountered Martin. Zimmerman’s call history goes back 2 years and is available in the evidence. He had checked locations of fleeing suspects before, and no, he didn’t just call in on black people despite a few sensationalistic stories in the press that could give that impression.

Now look at all that typing you made me do to correct something you could have easily found out had you taken my suggestion. I wonder how many other misconceptions and things you will throw at me rather than actually examining the evidence? I know you , Daisy, and not only are you needlessly stubborn but when it comes to things like this it’s forever Selma, Alabama to you, despite it being 50 years later, and no white guy being involved. I wonder if you can be fair.

My apologies for not giving you a specific nod Daisy on what you’ve done. But as I say not many feminists did so and I think its notable that you and Ozy are relative outsiders from the main flow of feminism.

And thanks.

I messed up in that last post. I said “lynch people”–

Lynch BLACK MEN and rape BLACK WOMEN. And take both of their kids away.

Gender specificity. Yall taught me it. 🙂

Fantastic website. Plenty of useful information here. I’m sending it to some pals ans additionally sharing in delicious. And of course, thanks to your sweat!