MISANDRY – The Vicious Absurdity of Pedophilia Hysteria and Some Good Responses and Counter-measures

The “bird in the backyard” is a test of typicality. If you can look out your window and see a certain species of bird, it’s probably pretty common in your area. Here are some stories happening within days of each other, with one from 2006 for perspective, that point out the absurdity and dangers of our society’s pedophilia hysteria and especially the bigoted way it applies to men and only men.

The first story is about Boris Johnson. He was on a BA plane back in 2006 and the stewardess asked him to move from where he was with his children. At first he thought he was getting upgraded, that they had recognized who he was. But no, his children were considered unaccompanied, because their female parent wasn’t there, so he as a man could not sit next to them, even if he was their male parent.

This is the face of male privilege – This is Boris Johnson we are talking about, the Lord Mayor of London, Member of Parliament, background as posh as they come, and he gets treated like this. Often the use of the term “male privilege” involves the Apex Fallacy, ascribing prerogatives to all men as a class which in fact only elite men enjoy, but this is Boris Johnson. He has about as much male privilege as a man can have. And look at how much good it does him.

This is not some kind of anomaly. Here’s another one from yesterday. Different airline, different country. (My God, there really is a place called Wagga Wagga. I thought that was all just Monty Python. I wonder if they are sister cities with Walla Walla.)

Again, this is not just a coincidence of two incidents happening close in time. Here’s a story of a guy standing in the check-out line who was accosted by some bigoted busybody who tried to excuse her behavior with “I stand up for children. I always believe the children. There is video recording in this store.”

A commenter named occupythekitchen on that thread said:

“I’d have turned the tables on her, “why are you talking to my kids. just because you’re a woman doesn’t mean you aren’t a child predator you freak. Get away from us before I call the police you nut job.”

And another commenter, CoolLord21 said:

“I stand up for children. I always believe the children. There is video recording in this store.”

My response would have been something like “well then it’s recording you harassing me and my children.”

So people are helping equip each other to handle these situations. And this really is a battle of inches, where it all happens one interaction and one correction at a time.

And this is not just about hurt feelings and living in a police state under a permanent cloud of suspicion, like having to worry about being thought to have looked at a white woman. Actually that’s not far off, because men really do get killed and falsely imprisoned over this. Just the other day right here in the Puget Sound, this happened. A woman walked into a grocery store, opened fire on men after yelling “Pedophile!”

Last year on a thread on Feministe, a commenter named Sheezlebub made a remark – can’t find it anywhere by googling – to the effect that she would start listening to all this whining about this general suspicion of pedophilia when she saw men actually suffering actual harm. Ironically it was right around this time that that 13 year old boy in Florida was given all kinds of grief for trying to help a little white girl find her mother in a store. So I was furious for a moment, but I got over it. For one thing, Sheezlebub or anyone else is simply correct to ask for visible, tangible evidence for anything she is asked to believe. But for another, this kind of thing is just not something she is going to see or be exposed to, and that’s not some fault of hers. I don’t see much street harassment of women, but that hardly means it doesn’t happen or that I am denying it, and I didn’t read her comment as some kind of denial either.

They say privilege blinds. Well, this is NOT some example of female privilege. It is not privilege not to be immediately and always suspected of pedophilia, it is a right. Fortunately women enjoy that right, and unfortunately men don’t – that’s not some a reason to deprive women of that right. The presumption of innocence is not a privilege, it is an individual right that is necessary to any system of justice, legal or simply cultural and societal, for it to be logically sound and decent.

But more and more women are starting to see what is happening to men. Note that the author of the article about the nurse on Qantas was a woman. Note also the response in comments this article on CafeStir got – it got slammed. Some of the comments are moronic, but most are bang on.

The word on this is getting out and overwhelmingly the response is encouraging. Mostly it’s women waking up to how this hurts their men, and how this impacts their caring for children. And they are starting to speak up.

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  • Tamen

    Perhaps you would’ve had better luck finding her comment if you had spelled her nick correctly: Sheelzebub.

    *You may consider this nitpicking as a payback for the all Galls look alike remark :)

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    If you had spelled it right, you mighta found the thread. 😛 It’s Sheelzebub.

    Is this it? I can’t find the comment of hers you refer to, though: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/18/salon-flubs-reporting-on-child-predators/

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    Now, you made me go over and see that thread on purpose, dincha?

    (Sorry if this is a derail… you might want another thread to discuss it further.)

    Thread: Don’t want to be called a creeper? Don’t be creepy.
    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/08/12/dont-want-to-be-called-a-creeper-dont-be-creepy/

    Its getting rough over there, peeps. They are up to 155 comments.

    Somebody named Sam (do yall know him?) pops up at #30. My old response to him would instantly have been #41 (With Love). Meaning: I think whoever responds as she did, can be reasoned with, is logical and is paying attention.

    Thus, I wish Sam had not wasted time on arguments with the feminists who have their minds already made up, and instead responded to a logical feminist like With Love in detail, and addressed her concerns. (Daisy’s two cents.) Instead, he gives her a one-liner in his reply at #47. She deserved a longer one. SHE MADE THE IMPORTANT POINT, dammit, but maybe men don’t know that?

    Anyway, a long response to her would mirror the types of conversations we have had here on this forum. :)

    Also igglanova writes at #51: Sam, there are zillions of books, essays, treastises, and articles that have been written for centuries that centre male sexuality. How on Earth does that not count as ‘talking about’ male sexuality? Hell, even female-targeted magazines like Cosmo spend a lot more ink telling readers how to please a man than they spend on women’s pleasure.

    I have learned from Danny (HI DANNY!) and others here, some reasons for this disconnect, but chances are, she has never had these points adequately replied to. At #55, he replies and does NOT address Shakespeare or the Bible or any of that, and drives right by her question. Fail.

    TB, perhaps you need to go explain that Apexual stuff over there, but if you would rather not, I understand. :p

  • Jared

    Oooh, the ‘Creep’ thread, I’m on that one under a different name (not sam, fyi). It boggles me how they can raise the severity of making a woman uncomfortable to tantamount to socking her in the jaw in one sentence, then laugh about how they don’t care if they’re hurting men’s “feeeeelings” in the next, and not even get that they might be mucking up. That ’empathy apartheid’ strikes again.

    Of course if you point this out it means that you’re defending ‘creep’ behaviour, which is suddenly following women home and unwanted touching, as oppossed to the previous examples of any unwelcome interaction that make the woman uncomfortable for any reason.

  • Eagle34

    God that thread is filled with people who seem to think high school is forever.

  • Skidd

    Good lord that creep thread. One one hand it’s like “Well yeah, some people call people creeps for dumb reasons, but F*CK YOU, IT’S TOTALLY NOT SUBJECTIVE”.

    Wat? They’ll admit that there are sometimes that you literally cannot avoid being called creepy or a creep or creeper (alas, that will always make me think of Minecraft), but it’s still your fault you were called that and only you can fix forest fires — I mean being called a creep.

    There is no winning. I think there is blindness about how toxic maleness is perceived as being and how they only find it a threat because they’ve had it ingrained in them that it’s a threat. Someone touching my shoulder is weird, but I don’t think it’s a threat of being raped. It’s that whole hyperinflation and fear of relatively infrequent stranger rape. I mean hell, the “creeper” touching you is probably more likely to have been part of the 1 in 6 than a stranger-rapist.

    The last interaction with someone I knew that had a sort of creepy personality was years back, and that’s because he forced religion stuff on me, made me high five him randomly, and would not leave me alone unless I smiled, even the day after my dog of 11 years died. Also he played saxophone terribly in a manner reminiscent of Kenny G, and that is auto creep-points. I don’t think he was ASD, but he was really bad at social cues. A bit like a turkey in human form. I felt pity for him more than anything. And I say this as the sibling of an ASD man who people avoid simply because he has a lazy eye and literally cannot maintain eye contact.

  • Druk

    Even if all men were pedophiles (not necessarily offenders), the hysteria we are seeing would still be too strong. We don’t cut men off from all women everywhere, even though most men are heterosexual.

  • debaser71

    Commenting on this will just make me angry. btw, I refuse to fly anymore. Between TSA, moronic rules, and harassment from thuggish men with automatic weapons. It ain’t worth it.

  • HectorF

    This has also been covered here: http://feministcurrent.com/5800/dude-throws-tantrum-on-account-of-sexism-feminists-laugh-their-faces-off/

    Read the comments if you have a high tolerance to nausea.
    And people ask why many men AND women now refuse to call themselves feminists.

  • Ginkgo

    Skidd,
    “It’s that whole hyperinflation and fear of relatively infrequent stranger rape.”

    That’s the damsel popse, part of toxic femininity.

    Hi, Hector,
    “Read the comments if you have a high tolerance to nausea.”

    I am limiting my intake fof toxins these days, so thanks for the warning. And thanks for monitoring that stuff. Those people need to be exposed.

    Daisu, I agree with your advice to Sam, but liie eagle, I think those people are basically trapped in an eternal high school.undergraduate world of cliques and orthodoxies and all that childish bullshit that I talked about in my Cow post.

    I go to the zoo, but it is to look at the animals, not to argue with them. Look at the degree of success you had with them.

  • elementary_watson

    @Hector: Took a very quick glance at that link, stopped reading after the first paragraph which had me wondering: When did “feminism” become the movement of the ever-fearful among the female sex who have to make an effort to find the courage and defenses to be able to ride a goddamn bus? I ask that as someone who was intimidated, bullied, harassed, arguably leered at and being threatened with a knife in trains and trams, and who still uses public transportation without being scared.

    Feminism! Stop trying to convince me that the women I respect are cowardly ninnies! Please!

  • Tovsain

    Wow, I should have known better than to read the comment thread on that “creep” article. The way people will seamlessly slide from discussing “socially clueless” to “behavior or body language makes me uncomfortable” to “crosses physical boundaries even after I’ve said no” almost makes me ill.

    If a man can objectively be accused of or considered a bad person for making someone subjectively uncomfortable prior to it being expressed that he was doing so (particularly when it comes to social rather than physical boundaries), then one is essentially arguing that men interested in being good should be removing themselves from society – because there is no way to always guarantee that you will not make someone uncomfortable (except perhaps to be so spectacularly attractive in demeanor and appearance that you couldn’t be viewedasa threat).

    In a similar vein, I almost think you could look at men-near-children paranoia as an argument that good men should be avoiding children – demonizing men when it comes to being around others children is an easier fight than demonizing men for interacting with their own, but to the same effect.

    As far as the creep thread goes, I think it’s all but impossible to have a good faith discussion about the term with anyone who views Men as enough of a monolith that any individual boundary violations are viewed as representative of all Men. You can’t argue that the term is applied to even those with good intentions who *would* adjust their behavior or back off if told, if the person doesn’t believe Men like that exist.

    I wonder how some of the more hostile commenters would react if I mentioned that the one time a Woman told me my presence was creeping her out at a bar, I stopped going to any bar in that town or several surrounding towns, because since I hadn’t even approached her, I had no behavior that I could fix or boundary I could be more careful of – indeed, I almost concluded that the ethical thing to dowasto avoid any bars at all, rather than just the ones she might be at – it took me a solid month to properly recover, I was so concerned with being “good”. I suspect rather than empathy, some of the people commenting would argue that I *did* do the right thing… talk about an empathy apartheid!

  • elementary_watson

    @tovsain: You really would consider it possible that those people would consider *anything* a man does after having been called a creep to have been the right thing to do?

    Anyway, sad to hear that this happened to you, and glad you got over it.

  • Ginkgo

    “I wonder how some of the more hostile commenters would react if I mentioned that the one time a Woman told me my presence was creeping her out at a bar, I stopped going to any bar in that town or several surrounding towns, because since I hadn’t even approached her, I had no behavior that I could fix or boundary I could be more careful of – indeed, I almost concluded that the ethical thing to dowasto avoid any bars at all, rather than just the ones she might be at – it took me a solid month to properly recover, I was so concerned with being “good”. I suspect rather than empathy, some of the people commenting would argue that I *did* do the right thing… talk about an empathy apartheid!”

    Tovsain, welcome if I haven’t welcomed you before.

    The ethical thing to do in that case would have ben to make a show of ignoring her. The ethical thing to do when you confront bigtory is to confront it back and not indulge, if that is in your capacity.

    Her reaction was not ideology, it was pathology. The only way to deal with is to try to stay healthy yourself and ot insist on maintaining that in the face of her dsitorted perceptions.

    There was a time and not too long ago when the mere presence of black people creeped white people out to the point that blalck people were barred frorm establishments serving white people.

    What if I decided that the presence of prostitutes creeped me out, and that given the way straight men are expected to buy straight women drinks just to be allowed tot talk to them for “the pleasure of their company” this is not really a very lax use of the legal term prostitution, that all women should stay away from bars that men patronize so they didn’t creep me out?

  • HectorF

    @elementary_watson and @gingko

    I actually fell ill reading that crap. I always promise myself I’m going to stay out of the gender wars on internet because it’s actually poisoning my mind, making me think about these things every day and it’s impacting in my relationship with the mostly-sane real women in my life.

    I had to go to a business meeting a while ago, and one of the people I had to talk to was a woman. She greeted me nicely and expressed concern when I tripped and almost fell down, and there was a part of my mind that was actually surprised that a woman was being nice to me. And the thing is not even that a woman in real life has been less than nice to me, but the fact that after reading about all these things online, it’s so easy to feel that all women are man-hating psychopaths.

    Problem is the gender divide is permeating everything, I found the link to that airline story in a forum about skepticism, in their “society section”, and I’ve gotten into debates about gender in comedy sites. I know I need to stay out of this for the sake of my sanity but I find it extremely hard to do that.

    That’s why I like sites like these, because it reminds me that not everyone buys into the radical gender wars, and that there are actually nice women (and men) out there.

    This post has been long enough, but I felt like getting this off my chest and maybe introducing a little since I’ve read several of the articles in the site but had never posted.

    So, Hi, guys, and thank you for the welcome.

  • Tovsain

    @elementary_watson

    Thanks.

    I suppose I meant more that if presented with a hypothetical situation, they would probably describe my course of action – “make sure you never find yourself in that situation again, whatever it takes”.

    In retrospect, I can’t believe I posted that story. I think I just wanted to highlight that extending creep shaming from situations that involve acting with agency to situations that involve nothing but subjective perceptions (“he didn’t do anything except make me uncomfortable” ) it implies having the power to declare with a single word that a man should remove himself from society.

  • Ginkgo

    “I actually fell ill reading that crap. I always promise myself I’m going to stay out of the gender wars on internet because it’s actually poisoning my mind, making me think about these things every day and it’s impacting in my relationship with the mostly-sane real women in my life.”

    It could impact it positiviely if you let it. Right now it sounds like you are letting suspicion creep in. What if instead you started comparing your lady, how she actually treats you, to what you read. What if you took as an occasion of gratitude instead of suspicion?

    Here’s my stroy on this. I got divorced in 97, my ex-wife’s initiative. We co-parent fine and itgot really good after about a year. it never was anything les than smooth functioing, but it got really good.

    Anyway, about five or six years ago I started reading gender blogs and seeing howother guys had fared, and got really angry. I got angry becasue if my ex could be so grown-up and honorable, why couldn’ these other women? And more than that, the reason these guys had been screwed so badly was a bigoted family law system. IOW my ex had had the opportunity to be really horrible and hadn’t taken it.

  • http://www.genderratic.com Xakudo

    @Daisy:

    Thread: Don’t want to be called a creeper? Don’t be creepy.
    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/08/12/dont-want-to-be-called-a-creeper-dont-be-creepy/

    Wow, good find. I’m really, really tempted to go over there and leave a comment that says, “Don’t want to be called a slut? Don’t be slutty.” But I think it’s best if I refrain.

    Incidentally, Sam is male. I know him from back in the day when Clarisse Thorn still had her manliness threads going (now those were good examples of good-faith, productive discussions and disagreements).

  • elementary_watson

    @tovsain: But even if you followed their ethical advice, it wouldn’t mean that this kind of person would be happy: You could have followed it more closely, you shouldn’t have waited for that advice before following it, you shouldn’t express your unhappiness resulting from following that advice, you shouldn’t think for one second that following this advice means that you are a Good Man, since you still haven’t stopped the rape of women, have you?

    I once reproached my ex-girlfriend for regularly putting me into situations where no matter what I did, she would be angry with me for it. She said it was my own fault for even trying to please her in such situations, and that it was unfair to blame her for my frustration.

    It took me far too long to realize the toxicity and ridiculousness of this behaviour, but I did realize it and learned to spot that behaviour in lots of online feminist discourse about men. If nothing you can ever do will please a person, you may as well go fishing.

  • Tovsain

    @Ginkgo “Tovsain, welcome if I haven’t welcomed you before.”

    I think I’ve been welcomed before, since I know I’ve commented – though I may have also posted a comment or two under another name (I used to switch handles every few months, as a side effect of a bad stalking incident. Sorry!)

    @elementary Watson
    “You could have followed it more closely, you shouldn’t have waited for that advice before following it, you shouldn’t express your unhappiness resulting from following that advice, you shouldn’t think for one second that following this advice means that you are a Good Man, since you still haven’t stopped the rape of women, have you?”

    @Ginkgo
    “The ethical thing to do in that case would have ben to make a show of ignoring her. The ethical thing to do when you confront bigtory is to confront it back and not indulge, if that is in your capacity.”

    Sorry for replying to you two simultaneously – but I used to have a tendacy to view morality on an individual level. Sort of a “first have no negative impact on other people” attitude. If a given “Action Y” results in a negative impact on Person X, I don’t think it’s wrong to say that “Action Y” is inconsiderate.

    If I met someone with PTSD who was really freaked out by loud noises, I would consider it inconsiderate to make loud noises in their presence after I found out about that. I might not consider it a moral imperetive to avoid loud noises – but I would without hesitation argue that making loud noises *after finding out about the PTSD* would be inconsiderate and rude. If I met a rape victim who was freaked out by people making jokes about Men always being up for sex, I would avoid comments that would trigger that. I don’t view any of that as wrong – I would *want* to be the kind of person who behaves that way. The real issue lies in stereotypes and preconceptions that feed “Male sexuality is hostile” attitudes.

    So on a very basic level, I think “X action makes Y person uncomfortable, I should avoid X action around Y person” is legitimately the appropriate response of a concerned individual. The problem with labels like “creep” or “pedophile” is that they often aren’t action/agency based, but are based on subjective reactions that have a lot to do with non-offensive behaviors.

  • http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com Stoner With a Boner

    Looks like someone is trying to silence Girl Writes What…

  • http://paddybrown.co.uk Patrick Brown

    According to AVFM (scroll down to a comment from Paul Elam near the bottom), whoever made the bogus copyright claim against GWW has withdrawn their complaint.

  • Jupp

    I am wondering:
    How comes that some people who diligently correct and criticise people, who use the term woman for a person with two x-chromosomes, use the term pedophile (which means an adult primarily sexually attracted to prepubescent kids) for child molester?

    On a different note: The sexual violence hysteria (Isn’ this term kinda sexist?) is annoying and makes our lives much more difficult and troublesome, but fact is the fearsome and hypersensitive have the moral upper hand. How do you argue with somebody who says, but I am afraid/I am triggered. This is especially hard when virtues like stoicism and “sucking it up” are looked down on. Those virtues are stereotypically gendered male, although they are quite valuable in many of a woman’s roles, like coworker, friend, spouse or mother.
    So is the misandry of the “girly fun femists” (like on the blog feministe for example) a consequence of their disregard of those “male” virtues or is it rather vice versa?

  • http://markley.weebly.com/index.html John Markley

    The “creep” thing is why (together with a few other things, most notably the demonization of shy, awkward, or unmasculine men in the whole “Nice Guy TM” discourse), even if I had no particular interests in gender issues or men’s rights, I’d still consider most online feminism an implacable enemy as an autistic man.

    I’ve never made an intrusive, inappropriate, or unwanted sexual advance on a woman in my life, and I can say that with absolute confidence because I’ve never made any sexual advance on a woman. I’ve never intruded on a woman’s physical boundaries because, outside a very small circle of people (which has no females other than a few blood relatives) I don’t touch or even move close to people if I can avoid it.

    I am, however, noticeably abnormal. My tone of voice and facial expression don’t usually reflect emotions unless I consciously make them do so. I have weird tics and weird facial expressions and shake a lot. I don’t look people in the eye. I walk funny. Sometimes it looks like I’m staring at something because I’m lost in thought and haven’t noticed that something has entered my visual field. My voice has an unpleasantly jerky, start-stop quality in most social situations unless I concentrate on preventing it. If a character looked and moved like me in a movie, he’d probably turn out to be either a serial killer or the host body of something trying to impersonate a human being and not quite pulling it off.

    I’m sure many people would find me weird or unsettling, especially when I’m not actively trying to pass- creepy, in other words. If, God forbid, I’d ever attempted the sort of social interactions normal for most young people in the United States, I’m sure plenty of those women in the links- and women in general- would have felt quite righteous about calling me a creep. Because seeing- or worse, being spoken to by- something like me would be distasteful to them, which might make them uncomfortable, and that’s all it takes. They’re fighting tooth and nail to legitimize vilifying me for being born as what I am, whether I’m doing anything wrong or not. They’re advocating a system of values where it would be wrong for someone like me to so much as speak to- hell, even be in the vicinity of- a woman, lest I make her uncomfortable. They despise my kind at least as much as the “patriarchy”does.

    I wonder how many autistic men and boys, knowing that they’re not what most people think a man should be, look to feminism because they’ve been told that feminists don’t hate and abuse men who fail to fit in with traditional masculinity- and run into shit like that. And believe it. Even if I had no interest in men’s issues as such, that’s something I would never, ever forgive.

  • http://Titfortat6.blogspot.com Titfortat

    @John

    Profound words. I think I learned something after that, Thanks!

  • http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com Stoner With a Boner
  • Ginkgo

    John, thank you for that. It really moved me. May I use part or all of it in a post? The I had never thought of the ableism of creep-shaming ,and in veiw of the gender distribution of autism, it is a gender issue.

  • Eagle34

    In case you’re interested, I’ll be performing Episode Five of my serial play “Speak To Me” on SAturday, August 18th, 2012 at 10am Pacific Time, 1pm Eastern Time, 6pm UK Time and Sunday, August 19th, 2012 4am Australian Time.

    You can listen to it here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/autistic-people-/2012/08/18/radio-drama-speak-to-me-v–10am-pst

    If you miss the performance, it’ll be available as a podcast one hour after the live performance. The link will still take you there.

  • Eagle34

    Ginkgo, can you do a blog post on the entire play when it’s over? I only have two more episodes left to perform and then post every single episode here. What do you say?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUv02VxAcNU MaMu1977

    I apologise for threadjacking, but this is absurd.

    http://feministcurrent.com/4248/can-i-get-a-fk-you-why-erections-are-always-right-and-feminists-are-always-wrong/

    In less than two paragraphs, she conflates male sexuality to war, murder and cancer. Stay classy, radfems.

  • http://www.genderratic.com Xakudo

    @Eagle34:
    I’m sure he’d be happy to. If nothing else, I’d be happy to post it.

  • RocketFrog

    John Markley,

    I am an autistic man who did spend considerable time in my youth among (a fairly radical fringe of) feminists, in no small part because I grew up in a feminist environment (which contained many different kinds of feminists, ranging from gender egalitarian humanists to some rather extreme misandrists).

    My experiences match yours almost to an uncanny degree. So, by the way, does my externally visible symptoms. In my early 30’s I finally managed to get my voice modulation to sound almost completely normal, however, although still only if I put some effort into it. I am frequently very, very tired and drained after having spent time interacting with people.

    Unfortunately, I have a rather weak mental constitution at the best of times, and I would sometimes do things like impose voluntary curfews on myself to avoid infringing on women’s security; I reasoned that my mere presence in public was enough to make women perceive a rape-threat, and so I kept myself indoors except to manage bare necessities. I imposed many rules upon myself as to lessen the offense and threat I might cause women. I have done these things in multiple periods in the past (usually when I am not doing well with my depressive disorder), despite sometimes thinking that it is all absurd. It was a female (and self-identified feminist) friend of mine who explained to me that thinking that all women require men like me to make that kind of personal sacrifices was not only absurd, but in fact insulting to most women except for a few extremists, who it was impossible to satisfy anyway.

    To be honest, I find a lot of gender debate absurd. But these things matter to a lot of people, and I try my best to not be offensive or oppressive (or to call too much attention to myself), and so I sometimes ended up taking some rather extreme “precautions”.

    Perhaps the most radical was in my late teens and early twenties, where I dreamed of being castrated or nullified to get rid of my sexual drive and needs (I am unfortunately heterosexual), and to take myself out of what I believed to be a class that was oppressive by its mere public presence.

    As I have said in the past, it would probably, however, not be wise to blame feminism for the failings and sufferings of a disabled man with multiple psychiatric diagnoses.

    But when all is said and done, my experience was that the kind of gender enforcement that can be so hard on autistic men was – at least in my particular case – carried out very, very vigilantly by feminists, much more so than I ever encountered in the mainstream. When I, in my youth, was still trying to attract a romantic and/or sexual mate, it was much harder for me to be denounced as a creep, oppressor and potential predator than to just get laughed at for playing outside my allotted league.

  • Ginkgo

    “In less than two paragraphs, she conflates male sexuality to war, murder and cancer. Stay classy, radfems.”

    MaMu, the standard thing to say to something like that, is “haters gonna hate”. And no I didn’t read it because it all starts to sound exactly alike after you’ve read a few of them. But I think there is something else to be said.

    I think one thing the MRM is already accomplishing is the re-examination among feminists of their lunatic fringe. They had plenty of time to do it over the years but preferred to be all big-tent and inclusive so it never happened. Well, now MRAs are holding a mirror up to them and rubbing their noses in it, and forcing a long overdue accounting.

    When we hear that feminism is not a monolith, this is what it means. It menas that no, not everyone has the same views, especially the odious ones, but no one is willing to come out and denounce those odioius views and distance themselves from them. And that means there really is no distance between those odious views, is there?

    And this is not some impossible standard that no one else is held to. Nationalist or ethnic identity movements sooner or later have to cut their racist elements loose, which is pretty hard for them to do because nationalism is almost always ultimately racist. The only way it really works is if the ethnic pride movement reaches out and advocates for others, especially whatever group they were vilifying. So likewise for a feminist to prove to me she is not a man-hater, she has to at least talk like an MRA.
    .

  • Skidd

    Re: “Creep” and Ableism/Neurodiversity

    I’ve got a brother, 20 years old, who fairly obviously has an ASD, as well as some other learning disorders. I got into neurodiversity movement partly because of him, and partly because of my own ADD. (I stim, mostly with my feet, but I get comments on my stimming. My brother stims mostly with his hands). I worry for my brother that he’s going to have it hard in life with social interaction. He has a phobia of not living up to expectations. He has panic attacks and sometimes can have a disconcerting gaze because in addition to not meeting your eyes (he’ll stare a little bit above your shoulder), he has a lazy eye that makes him a little wall-eyed. We live in Utah, which is obviously surrounded by the patriarchal, family-oriented Mormon culture, which may limit his future options further. He’s never been on a date or expressed interest in dating – he’s mostly become a homebody. For all I know, he could be ace, but I don’t know, and I worry for his social awkwardness in his life to come.

    But then again, sometimes I can’t read social cues very well, either. How was I supposed to know that church ladies didn’t want to hear about how african wild dogs kill by disemboweling. I get too into my zoology/ethology stuff.

    But as a twentysomething girl, I have all the empathy in the world for ASD men. It’s a tough life. It’s a tough life for all ASD people, even if you’re like Nikola Tesla or Satoshi Taijiri. And yeah, breaking the “creepy-autist” thing is important in neurodiversity. Or creepy anything. Someone with a tic disorder or other issue will have similar social issues. It’s much more an issue with invisible disabilities/disorders/differences than with obviously visible ones.

    I think some people need to step back and not EVERYTHING that makes them say “something feels wrong” is “something is dangerous here”. It’s like… the term uncanny valley? Like, for instance, this is something I had to work on personally, but sometimes trans women will involuntarily give me the “uncanny valley” vibe – something felt off. But that doesn’t mean I’m in danger. I made (and am making) a conscious effort to get over this.

    Violations of human social norms sometimes will have this sort of effect in other people – but honestly? Predators are typically, in my limited experience, the kind of people with excellent social skills to walk and talk their way into situations. They are convince-ers and fast talkers. ASD or neurodivergent people aren’t really very threatening at all – but I grew up with one and it’s all really normal to me. Not everyone has that experience growing up to be around neurodivergent people, and much like children who grew up without exposure to other races who are nervous around people of other races, there’s a lack of imprinting that neurodivergent behavior is okay and non-threatening.

    There is creep-by-dangerous-behavior and creep-by-xenophobia. I am okay with people calling “creep” at the first, not at the second. And yes, calling creep for non-threatening non-normative behavior associated with neurodiversity is xenophobic. (Using xenophobic in a sense of “afraid/bigoted against outgroups”)

  • Eagle34

    Well, my ratings for Episode Five of my play have climbed. Just not the levels garnered from Episode Four and Three.

    I’m hoping they’ll improve. Because if they don’t, it’ll be a major dissappointment.

    I don’t understand. What happened to the followers who were around for Episode Four and Three? Was it all a fluke? A one time fad deal? Will I ever see those numbers again? Because this play is too important to just be cast off into oblivion especially when it concerns a male rape survivor at the hands of his father and aunt. It’s not like I haven’t been posting it.

    Sorry, just ranting.

  • Ginkgo

    Eagle, if it’s any consolation, somethings that becoem cultural reference pints took along time to get noticed. It’s almost the norm with the really popular operas. no one paid much attention to the Lord of the Rings for years.

    Skidd, that is all really good background.

  • http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/ Danny

    Hey Daisy! I didn’t notice your greeting there as I’ve been a bit busy lately. Sorry.

    What bugs me is how many people are so ready to defend stuff like this. Ozy did a post on this at NSWATM and sure enough there were folks that have no problem with assuming men are on planes to harm children. Probably some of the very same people that would Flip The Fuck Out if this were happening to well, nearly any other walk of life on Earth.

  • Ginkgo

    Hey, Danny – good to see you! I thought you were mad at me or something.

    Ozy is fighting the good fight on this. Look at the shit for comments this guy gets, from one commenter in particular:
    http://hetpat.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/discrimination-plane-and-simple/
    http://hetpat.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/plane-and-simple-updates/

    Here’s a especially revealing piece of one of those comments:

    “Bitethehand
    On the other hand you “vile corrupting men” might just take time to read the conditions of service of the airline on which you choose to fly.

    I’m sure there must be airlines – try Biman, that will offer a “superior male” experience that’s far more to your liking.”

    Danny, tell me, can you think of a historical parallel for this kind of sentiment?

  • http://markley.weebly.com/index.html John Markley

    Ginkgo,

    Glad you found the comment interesting. By all means, feel free to quote as much as you wish in a post; I’d be interested in seeing your take on the subject.

  • http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/ Danny

    Oh nah Ginkgo. I wasn’t mad at your or anything. I’ve just been mad busy lately. Things are picking up at my job, car troubles are plaguing me, I’m one of only three moderators at GMP, trying to get active again in a writer’s circle I joined via facebook, STARTED SEEING SOMEONE, started the basics on trying to organize an anime convention something in 2014, trying to play Skyrim and LA Noire, and having a million post ideas in my head.

    Quite busy indeed.

    That comment doesn’t surprise me at all on this Virgin Air thing. Funny men want to be treated with basic respect and it’s regarded as a demand for superior treatment. But as for a historical parallel? If you’re thinking what I think you’re thinking then I must say, “Well at least he wasn’t asked to sit at the back of the plane and could not be served drinks from the ‘women only’ cooler.”

  • RocketFrog

    I considered writing a comment on that creep thread (especially since Schala mentioned me), but I decided against it – the kinds of responses given in places like Feministe tends to leave me dysfunctional for a few days afterwards. But this is what I had written:

    The problem with the term “creepy” is that it has several different, distinct meanings, all of which have the common theme that someone gets “creeped out” by the “creep” in question. However, this reaction does not always have anything to do with any boundary-disrespecting actions carried out by the creep at all; sometimes the mere *presence* of a particular person is considered creepy by others – possibly due to inexperience with dealing with particular types of people, possibly due to prejudice, possibly due to outright bigotry.

    This makes it problematic when these different meanings are conflated, because when saying “the onus is on the creeper to stop being creepy”, although what you probably want to say is “the onus is on people who violate others’ sexual and physical boundaries to stop doing so”, due to the conflation of different meanings, you are also saying “the onus is on black / trans / autistic people to stop being black / trans / autistic in public”, simply because a considerable number of people find ethnic minorities, transgender people and neurodivergent people “creepy” (including non-bigoted people, and often for reasons they cannot even explain). This is why some people take offense to the term. People are being creep-shamed for doing no other crime than being around other people – and you are defending this practice, even though you may not mean to.

    I am a creepy person. I have spent most of my adult life working hard on not being creepy, but I still am. I am autistic, and find it very difficult to simulate non-autistic body language and mannerisms to the extent that I am not considered creepy. I have a number of motor tics, I cannot maintain eye contact, and unless I devote a considerable amount of concentration to my face, I will make odd facial expressions. I know for an absolute fact that I have never made inappropriate sexual advances, because I never make sexual advances at all (in fact, I am not even sure how to make one) – but women still say that I am creepy. I have been called creepy, when I was younger, for standing in a bar alone, apparently taking a little too long time to finish my beer. More recently I have been called creepy for sitting alone in a cafe, drinking coffee and thinking about life while watching the world go by from a corner. Because something about me apparently seems “off”, people tend to have “creeped-out” reactions to me – especially strangers, but even people who know me.

    When you are saying that creepy people are responsible for not being creepy, then you are asking me to live my life in solitary confinement. I realize that you probably do not mean to – but given the multiple meanings of “creep” and how the term is used, that is still what you are saying.

  • RocketFrog

    Skidd,

    Like your brother, I mostly stim with my hands, although I also perform a number of whole-body movements. I also sometimes have vocal tics (although that was much more prevalent in my childhood; I would make a number of weird noises). When in public I try not to, but I do not always remember (because there are so many other things to also be mindful about to avoid offending people). I also have an odd gait. Also like your brother, I have spent a long time being absolutely obsessed with not living up to expectations (expectations that I frequently do not really understand), especially the expectations of women.

    When I was in my late teens, I was also sometimes thought to be ace, although I am in fact heterosexual. I tended to avoid the subject, because I knew that my knowledge and understanding of it was embarassingly poor, because I had little to say about it (due to said lack of knowledge and understanding) and found conversations on the subject incredibly awkward, and because thinking about it causes me considerable psychological pain.

    It still does. In fact, my sexuality is the primary source of pain and despair in my life, and I really wish it would just go away. I sometimes wish I could be castrated or nullified and that that would make it go away, or that there was some way to turn myself asexual. Sadly, I think that a non-asexual person trying to turn himself into an asexual person would probably lead to much the same results as when religious fundamentalists try to turn homosexual people into heterosexual people: Pain and failure. I know that most women find men like me, at best, pitiable. I have ended up in a “Nice Guy” situation more often than I would like to admit (given how Nice Guys are considered entitled oppressors).

    I know that there is nothing I can do to make myself less unattractive; the mental health workers I have worked with seem to all agree that I have probably reached the peak of the level of social functioning I can possibly hope to (I have managed to find a job, I live in my own apartment, and I even have a friend I occasionally see). I have opted out, because for me, it seems that the “mating game” is much like tic-tac-toe and global thermonuclear warfare: The only winning move is not to play. If women consider me so loathsome, why would it be acceptable of me to want to inflict myself upon them? Obviously, it is not.

    I had a girlfriend once, who was ashamed of being seen with me in public, and who would frequently remind me that she could get a real man if she wanted to. I was not good enough for her, and I knew that all too well. In fact I think I inadvertently deceived her; she thought I was someone I am not, capable of things that I am not, so it is only natural that she came to despise me once she discovered what I am.

    And this is why I hate my sexuality and want it to go away, and why I never ever talk about it except when reasonably anonymous (and I was not even able to do that until I was about 30). The whole subject is so full of shame for me that I find it hard to even consider. It is as if I have desires and needs that I am biologically incapable of satisfying; women are “creeped out” by me when I am at my absolutely best behaviour. Even my former girlfriend openly told me that she never ever felt attracted to me. I think it is impossible to be attracted to someone like me.

    I have accepted that this particular part of life is not for men like me, but that does not mean I like that particular fact. Most of the time, it largely feels like I am just dragging myself through the days, hoping that there will soon not be any more days left. I have sometimes considered suicide, but I will not do so, because I know my family and one aforementioned friend would blame themselves, and I would never want them to do so. When I was younger, I was better at distracting myself with various projects, but recently I have found it difficult to focus (which is downright frightening to me, since focus is basically all I ever had).

    I agree with your analysis of the creep thread; it is much like my own thoughts on the subject, given in my previous post.

  • Tovsain

    @RocketFrog

    I think not posting in that thread is the right move. It looks like they banned and labeled as a troll any who were disagreeing with them, more or less dogpiling on them with endless variations of “just don’t be creepy”. To call it a hostile environment would be an understatement.

  • Paul

    On the topic of the airline pedo policy… is anybody else waiting for the day the policy forces them to move a minority male away from a white child?

    I’m utterly fascinated to see whose shit hits that fan first.

  • HidingFromtheDinosaurs

    Wow, things have taken a turn quite relevant to my life and interests while I was away (finally resettled back in the States, at least until the new semester starts and I have to move again). Fortunately, RocketFrog, John Markley and Skidd seem to have already said most of what I would have wanted to.

    I can pass for neurotypical better than most autistics (after a lot of work, I can speak without stuttering, look people in the eye, initiate normal conversations and go without any kind of stimulation to my hands for extended periods when I have to), but in some ways that just makes the things I can’t do even more of a problem than they would be otherwise because people I meet have no cues at all that I might have difficulty interpreting their signals or with certain types of interaction. I still get completely exhausted from interacting with people and I can’t spend time in noisy, crowded places like bars and clubs without turning into a complete wreck (this last point renders essentially all dating advice on the internet entirely useless to me). I’ve never made advances to anyone and I’ve never discussed sex or sexuality in person with anyone (I don’t think I’ve ever really had that sort of discussion openly outside of this site). I’m not averse to it, but it’s such a dangerous subject to discuss openly and honestly in our society, especially for a man, that I’ve never felt safe bringing it up with anyone. As for making advances to someone, I have absolutely no idea how. I could invite someone on a date if I felt so inclined, but I could never take it beyond that point. I don’t think it helps that I would actually like for any sort of physical encounter to involve all of the asking permission which is so vehemently advocated online and so often felt to be unsatisfactory in person. This is mostly an academic question for me in any case, as I have only ever met one person I would have actually wanted to have a relationship with (she wrote me later that she actually liked me as well, but the times and places didn’t work out). I feel a strong desire to have a relationship, but society seems dead set against the sort of relationship I would find safe or fulfilling and there really don’t seem to be many people out there who have enough in common with me for it to work out, anyway (you’d think comic books or video games would be the sticking point, but a real interest in reading and literature seems to be much harder to find). Oddly enough, I feel a much stronger longing for non-sexual physical contact than for sex, although I believe I have a normal libido.

    I really hate the creep thing. It’s much, MUCH too close to the sort of remark that got me beaten as a child (either by social workers or by other children). That thread is a toxic cesspit and I don’t think it’s a good idea for anyone to go and post there. If they’re interested in listening, they can come and ask. If they aren’t, they can sit and stew in their own juices.

    This isn’t unrelated (I don’t know where to put it, so I’ll put it here), but I would also like to add that, now that I have a much better understanding of what it actually costs in time and money for a man to be well-groomed and fashionable than I did back when I was a feminist, all the people who say that it takes so much more effort and resources for women to keep themselves looking good are filthy liars (or possibly relics of a bygone era). The only reason the average woman is spending more time and money on looks is that no one actually teaches the average boy how to dress and take care of himself properly (this is not a benefit for those boys).

  • JE

    @RocketFrog: As I’ve said before your ex was a text book psychological abuser. You shouldn’t think that anything she said or did reflects on you as a person. It doesn’t.

    [blockquote]”In fact I think I inadvertently deceived her; she thought I was someone I am not, capable of things that I am not, so it is only natural that she came to despise me once she discovered what I am.[/blockquote]

    And you just so happened to be someone good natured enough and prone enough to self blame to allow her to carry out her abuse? No, I think she knew exactly what she was getting.

  • RocketFrog

    JE:

    She is the only woman I have ever known who had any interest in me apart from at best a platonic friend, at worst a provider of free tech support and educational assistance. And that says something about me.

    As an aside, my disability support worker recently informed me about a disorder called Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder, a mental disorder developed by partners of people on the autism spectrum (especially non-autistic women who are in relationships with autistic men). Essentially, being with an autistic person will cause some non-autistic people to turn emotionally blunted and display symptoms reminiscent of borderline personality disorder, due to the emotionally stressful nature of being with a person who is completely unable to meet one’s needs.

    It is possible that my ex was acting as she did due to this. But it also means that it is unethical for men like me to be in relationships – although that is a moot point, given that women do not consider me attractive anyway, since I have nothing to offer that any woman wants (and if some hypothetical woman *does* like aspie programmers obsessed with science fiction, then she has a large pool of much superior specimens to choose from).

  • RocketFrog

    HidingFromTheDinosaurs:

    I can pass for neurotypical better than most autistics (after a lot of work, I can speak without stuttering, look people in the eye, initiate normal conversations and go without any kind of stimulation to my hands for extended periods when I have to), but in some ways that just makes the things I can’t do even more of a problem than they would be otherwise because people I meet have no cues at all that I might have difficulty interpreting their signals or with certain types of interaction.

    I personally think that a lot of my own hard work in trying to “pass” sometimes makes me more creepy. Skidd mentions the “uncanny valley” – I think that all my work has taken me out of “obviously mentally disabled” territory and into “uncanny valley” territory. It is probably easier for people to feel at ease if the weird guy in the corner is obviously autistic than if something unidentified is just unnervingly “off” about him.

    As for bars and clubs, I hate typical clubs; too many people, usually lots of smoke and a temperature that would put a sauna to shame, too loud bad music, people behaving bizarrely. I get anxiety attacks in such places. When I still drank alcohol, I frequented quieter bars. I sometimes like to sit somewhere else than my apartment; I know a few cafes that I occasionally drink coffee at.

    (the closest I have to a “normal” social life is sitting by myself in a public place with a book or a laptop. But that is not so bad. I have a friend and some family members who meet most of my (admittedly rather Spartan) social needs, and whose own needs are understandable enough for me to have a chance of not being a complete disappointment).

    I’ve never made advances to anyone and I’ve never discussed sex or sexuality in person with anyone (I don’t think I’ve ever really had that sort of discussion openly outside of this site).

    Me neither. I am afraid of bringing up the subject. This is why I mentioned it with regard to Skidd’s brother – I do not know if he is asexual or not, but I do know that people have thought I was, because I never talk about sex or sexuality (except in the quasi-anonymity here). Even people I trust, who know all sorts of ugly personal details about me, I do not feel safe talking about those things with.

    As for making advances to someone, I have absolutely no idea how. I could invite someone on a date if I felt so inclined, but I could never take it beyond that point.

    Same here. Asking someone out is just some words, I can do that. But escalating it beyond me getting the privilege of buying coffee or food for someone is something I cannot do; I have no idea how. It seems dependent on a good command of nonverbal communication that I simply do not possess.

    I have sometimes told women, many years ago, if I had romantic feelings for them. Reactions ranged from polite bemusement to laughter and public humiliation. Later, I gave up. As I have said before, my conclusion is that it is a game that I can only lose in.

    I feel a strong desire to have a relationship, but society seems dead set against the sort of relationship I would find safe or fulfilling and there really don’t seem to be many people out there who have enough in common with me for it to work out, anyway (you’d think comic books or video games would be the sticking point, but a real interest in reading and literature seems to be much harder to find).

    In my case, most of my interests are so stereotypically geeky-male that any woman who likes such things will have a huge selection of single geeky males to choose from, most of them superior (in the sense of “able to live up to women’s expectations and meet their requirements”) to me.

    Oddly enough, I feel a much stronger longing for non-sexual physical contact than for sex, although I believe I have a normal libido.

    I have no idea if mine is normal.

    When I am lying alone in my bed at night feeling lonely and empty, what I miss is not someone to have sex with, it is someone to hold me and for me to hold and all those things. I think it is TyphonBlue who has sometimes written about men being “touch-deprived” or “touch-starved”, and that seems to me to be a good description of what I feel.

    And I hate it, because I have needs that I know I am incapable of ever satisfying.

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    RocketFrog, this is not a flip comment, but serious.

    I have a friend who got a t-shirt, “I’m not drunk, I have CP”… you might want to get one and wear it, that says “I’m not a creep, I’m autistic”–really. You can have t-shirts custom made for fairly cheap, Then put it on, go out and have a beer. SERIOUSLY, I am 100% serious. Might not work the first time, but wash it and wear it every time you go out. Make sure to go to high-traffic locales where there are women ALONE, not with mobs of other giggling groupthink-oriented females. Street festivals during the day, museums, libraries are especially good. In fact, wear it everywhere.

    A nice girl will eventually strike up a conversation with you. SHE is the one you are looking for.

    Just call me Miss Lonelyhearts; Nathaniel West, call your office.

    PS: Worked for my friend… got the idea from him. He thought women took him as mentally-disabled when he is actually very smart… the shirt showed a certain self-awareness, intelligence and sense of humor, and lots of women talked to him when he wore it. (He actually got a couple of different, cute variations made.) Finally, he struck gold and landed a very nice girlfriend who is nerdy and sweet, like him.

    He recommends t-shirts… to ALL his friends, now. LOL.

    Advertising is big business for a reason!

  • Clarence

    Paul:
    That’s simple. The racism charge will trump the sexism charge and it will also trump any “but it’s for the children” complaints. On the victimology hierarchy in the US, race comes first, which is why racism is a bigger sin than sexism, and why most white feminists are wary to attack (even the arguably true) misogynistic elements in black pop culture. I think it has been Gingko, or maybe even Daisy, who posited that white feminists merely “piggybacked” the civil rights movement. So if it was a US airline the answer would be simple.

    To be fair, this airline is in New Zealand if I recall and I don’t know the victimology hierarchy there, but I do know that in Great Britain racial grievance seems to trump all, and NZ was a part of the commonwealth at one time and for all I know might still be.

  • Ginkgo

    Rocketfrog, you say the only ethical thing for you is to stay out of relationships. in fact that isn’t ethical either, because torturing yourself by emotional starvation is no more ethical than devloping a relationship with someone you are going to drive crazy. It is a lot easier though, and that is a non-trivial and valid consideration.

    The key is to fnd someone you are compatible with, and in a population of seven billion, those women have to be out there somewhere.

    But if you don’t you will get so hungry and desperate that you try to build relationships with toxic insects like the one that kept reminding you she could get a “real man”. Hint: no she couldn’t, no real man would tolerate that kind of shit forever. You didn’t, for instance.

  • RocketFrog

    Ginkgo,

    It is not really as if I have much of a choice.

    If I met someone I was compatible with, A) I would not have the slightest idea what to do (and as a man in my particular culture, I am expected to), and B) she would easily be able to get a better man anyway. As I said – there are many more single men of my particular type than there are women who want anything to do with that particular type.

    You are right though that self-torture and starvation are also not viable options. This is why I have spent many years trying to figure out a way to get rid of my sexuality altogether, ideally without having to resort to unlicensed surgery or illegal substances. Unfortunately, I do not think it can be done.

    By the way, it was not me who broke up with her, it was her who broke up with me. She is currently in an apparently successful relationship (which reinforces my view that it was obviously me who was the problem).

  • RocketFrog

    Daisy:

    Thank you for the consideration.

    Unfortunately, my experience with strangers knowing about my neurological disposition is not good. It leads to sympathetic people giving me pity, which I have no use for and find somewhat demeaning, and also leads to less sympathetic people trying to exploit me.

    There is a strict upper limit to how high-traffic locales I can handle without having an anxiety attack, unfortunately (and also, I do not drink beer anymore; I have been completely alcohol-free for years).

    I like the idea of that t-shirt, but I do not really like drawing undue attention to myself (I suppose one could argue that some of my mannerisms do so anyway, though). In my experience, being publicly autistic does not make nice girls want to strike up a conversation, it makes them want to stay away (or at best, deliver pity), and it is an invitation for condescension. While I have now reached an age where I no longer really worry that I will be beaten up for being “weird”, my childhood experiences still linger somewhere in the deep recesses of my brain.

    My point was, though, that when these people are saying “the onus is on the creep to stop being creepy” with the definition of “creep” being “someone considered creepy by another”, and some people are considered creepy just for being in public view, they are in fact saying to such people that it is their duty to not be autistic or black or transgender in public. They are telling people to live in solitary confinement, because others find them creepy – and I am baffled to see time and again on feminist websites that feminists of all people (who I think generally have the theoretical grounding to understand minority issues to a higher extent than the general public) cannot seem to understand this.

  • Ginkgo

    “If I met someone I was compatible with, A) I would not have the slightest idea what to do (and as a man in my particular culture, I am expected to), and B) she would easily be able to get a better man anyway…”

    If she were compatible with you, she would probably not be as compatible with him, whoever he was, than with you. That’s the thing about compatibility.

    “She is currently in an apparently successful relationship (which reinforces my view that it was obviously me who was the problem).”

    Not necessarily. It just may mean she found someone more like her. (God help us.)

    Think of interpersonal compatability the same as you would of any other sort. Cultural compatibility – is an orientatiojn towards individualism “better” than an orientation toward group benefit? It doesn’t matter – if you get two people, one of each, it’s miserable. There really are couples who do to really have a common language and they do manage to communcate, but it has to be exhausting and awkward.

    “My point was, though, that when these people are saying “the onus is on the creep to stop being creepy” with the definition of “creep” being “someone considered creepy by another”,

    I can think of at least one feminist blog where that would be immediately labeled ableism and victim-blaming, and they would be right. We all have to make some effort to accomodate each other, but I can gaurantee that if we were to meet, you would be doing a lot more work to be accomodating than I would be. It would be up to me to take up some of that burden, don’t you think?

  • http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com Danny

    Paul:
    On the topic of the airline pedo policy… is anybody else waiting for the day the policy forces them to move a minority male away from a white child?

    I’m utterly fascinated to see whose shit hits that fan first.
    I can answer that one for you already. It’s the same thing that has happened when it comes to the topic of black men in prison. It will be made out to be an entirely racial issue and the gender aspect will all but totally ignored. If such a thing were to happen I’s almost be willing to bet you a blank check that for the most part outside of sites that already talk about gender from a male perspective (meaning that among feminists you can pretty much limit that to Ozy and a precious few others) it will be made out to be a total racial issue and previous incidents like this will suddenly have never happened.

    Ginkgo:
    Rocketfrog, you say the only ethical thing for you is to stay out of relationships. in fact that isn’t ethical either, because torturing yourself by emotional starvation is no more ethical than devloping a relationship with someone you are going to drive crazy. It is a lot easier though, and that is a non-trivial and valid consideration.
    That’s what I was thinking. When it comes to relationships if there is one thing that I have learned accepting that relationships aren’t for me plus the desire to find a partner pretty much equals emotional torture. If one the desire for a relationship is truly not there then it will be a lot easier (and I would say ethical as well). However if that desire is still there, in my experience, there is not enough “accepting they aren’t for me” in this world to make that desire go away.

    Rocketfrog:
    By the way, it was not me who broke up with her, it was her who broke up with me. She is currently in an apparently successful relationship (which reinforces my view that it was obviously me who was the problem).
    I’m not sure that’s true. Who broke up with who doesn’t indicate which partner was the problem and the fact that one partner went on to another relationship (no matter how successful) while the other didn’t isn’t either.

    From what I’ve seen of what you say about her she seems to be emotionally abusive. It’s entirely possible that she left you because she found a better victim, considering your spirit fully broken and thus not much “fun” or “challenge” anymore. If we were talking about a woman whose boyfriend had broken up with her after years of abuse would people be so quick to say that she was the problem, even if that abusive boyfriend went on to find another woman to get together with and abuse?

    I fact I wonder if maybe she didn’t leave you and that guy she is with now isn’t on the edge of becoming another you (you say “apparently successful” but it wouldn’t be the first time that someone was being abused in a relationship but the outside world didn’t know about it).

    My point was, though, that when these people are saying “the onus is on the creep to stop being creepy” with the definition of “creep” being “someone considered creepy by another”, and some people are considered creepy just for being in public view, they are in fact saying to such people that it is their duty to not be autistic or black or transgender in public. They are telling people to live in solitary confinement, because others find them creepy – and I am baffled to see time and again on feminist websites that feminists of all people (who I think generally have the theoretical grounding to understand minority issues to a higher extent than the general public) cannot seem to understand this.
    I wager that a good number of them understand it just fine. In fact I think a good number of them actively operate in just the way you describe. Wouldn’t be the first time shaming was employed as a method of controlling groups of people.

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    I realized when all the feminist writers called Glen on Mad Men a “creep”–that I must like the creeps. I have always liked quiet boys, and I like the character on Mad Men. I’m still not sure why they call him a creep, but it seems to be a consensus:

    “Mad Men” viewers have been increasing creeped out by Glen Bishop in Season 5, which ends Sunday, June 10 at 10 p.m. ET. The character has been giving AMC viewers the chills since he first stared at Betty Draper (January Jones) in the bathroom and asked for a lock of her hair five years ago.

    But did you know that — as BuzzFeed pointed out in their list of 25 fun facts about the show — the role of Glen is played by “Mad Men” creator Matt Weiner’s son Marten Weiner?

    Though the fact has never been hidden, the actor’s relationship to Weiner seems to be earning more attention as of late. Weiner explained his decision to cast his son — who had never acted before “Mad Men” — in the widely despised role in a March interview with NPR.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/10/glen-mad-men-matt-weiner-son-marten_n_1584937.html

    Widely despised? He is? Well damn, I have always found him one of the most interesting characters on the show… I love when he leaves the gift for Sally on her pillow after trashing the rest of the house. I had boyfriends like that! LOL

    Really, it says a lot about our culture that he is considered creepy and he is the one who takes Sally’s side. (Free Sally Draper!)

    So RocketFrog, please think it over okay? (the t-shirt idea) You might attract a nice (but perhaps loud and/or crazy) girl like me, who thinks creeps are cool and interesting. 😀

  • Tovsain

    @Daisy

    While I think the T-Shirt idea is great for something like CP, I think it would be a really bad idea for a case like this. The term “creep” carries too much social stigma among those who would use it as a condemnation. It’s one of those things that you can’t preemptively distance yourself from, because that distancing is viewed as suspicious in and of itself. “I’m not drunk, I’m just…” works because drunk is a state – so you are pointing out that it would be an inaccurate assessment of you. “Creep”, on the other hand, is an applied label – too many people would react really, really negatively to someone trying to preemptively deny it.

    A shirt that avoided the term (and avoided saying anything like “sorry if I make you uncomfortable” might work, but it would have to be free of any phrasing that had anything to do with other people, the people reading the shirt. “I’m not antisocial, I’m just autistic and excessively polite” or the like. Either way though, probably not a good idea if one finds “pity” somewhat distasteful and disrespectful.

  • Ginkgo

    How about a T-shirt that says “If you thinkI’m a creep, what does that say about you?”

    I know it’s pretty poor logic, but it’s passive-aggressive as hell. A low blow like that is likely to land a hitt and put a stop on someone.

  • debaser71

    IMO advertising your problems (and sorry for the fuzzy word) is an invitation for jerks to bother you. But I guess this depends on context. On a crowded bus jerk abound. Walking down your street in a quiet peaceful neighborhood and maybe you’ll interact with your friendly and sympathetic neighbor.

  • RocketFrog

    debaser,

    I was thinking the same thing.

    (and I do not live in a quiet peaceful neighbourhood.)

  • RocketFrog

    Danny,

    When it comes to relationships if there is one thing that I have learned accepting that relationships aren’t for me plus the desire to find a partner pretty much equals emotional torture.

    I agree. Unfortunately, that means that unless there is some way I can get rid of that desire, then there is no other option for me but emotional torture.

    If we were talking about a woman whose boyfriend had broken up with her after years of abuse would people be so quick to say that she was the problem, even if that abusive boyfriend went on to find another woman to get together with and abuse?

    Probably not. But I have a history of being considered at best unsuitable, at worst downright repugnant by women, which indicates that something is wrong.

    I wager that a good number of them understand it just fine. In fact I think a good number of them actively operate in just the way you describe. Wouldn’t be the first time shaming was employed as a method of controlling groups of people.

    Perhaps I am gullible, but I think that feminists in general – particularly the ones who frequently talk about intersectionality – do not actually harbor animosity towards marginalized groups of men. I mean, look at NSWATM, where a very large number of posts are specifically about mistreatment of black or gay men (or trans people of any gender). I think that it is more likely that they are so intent on keeping the “creep weapon” in the arsenal that they are blinding themselves to its collateral damage.

  • RocketFrog

    Ginkgo,

    If she were compatible with you, she would probably not be as compatible with him, whoever he was, than with you. That’s the thing about compatibility.

    The USB port on my computer is compatible with a large range of devices, for example USB-connected external hard drives. But if I had the choice, I would prefer a quiet 1 TB drive to a noisy 200 GB clunker, even though my computer is compatible with both.

    Is this analogy too strained, or do you understand what I mean?

    I can think of at least one feminist blog where that would be immediately labeled ableism and victim-blaming, and they would be right.

    Even NSWATM has defended the use of “creep”, but you are probably right that a feminist blog exists that would not accept it.

    I think the problem is that, as I said above, “creep” has multiple meanings, one of which is “sexual harasser”, the other is “someone who is disturbingly non-typical in public”.

  • Ginkgo

    RF,

    That is an even better analogy. It’s more cut and dry.

    Correction on what feminist blogs would accept. You are right about the faux-masculist site NSWATM. And now that i think about it, I am sure almost any feminist blog would privilege a young woman’s feelings over a non-neurotypical young man’s dignity. I have almost no doubt of that. I mispoke.

  • RocketFrog

    I am not sure if I would call NSWATM “faux-masculist”. At least they are trying to consider a male perspective on gender issues too, although sometimes they screw up. I am less friendly towards the GMP in general.

    What I meant about my analogy is that I am an all-but-worthless option who nobody – even someone “compatible” with me – would want, if they can get something better. And nearly all women can. If a woman happens to like science fiction and computer nerds, why settle for a highly defective one, like me, if there are nine better ones to choose from too? (in my USB drive analogy: why go for the noisy 200GB clunker if you can get a quiet 1TB drive?)

  • Ginkgo

    “What I meant about my analogy is that I am an all-but-worthless option who nobody – even someone “compatible” with me – would want, if they can get something better.”

    Better is a judgment for that person to make. It’s not as if there is some absolute statndard or hierarchy of bad to good that everyone agrees on when it comes to this.

    I took your analogy to mean you chossing the quiet 1TB drive over an abusive clunker.

    I call NSWATM faux-masculist for a number of reasons. Banning you is one of them. Their knee-jerk refusal to entertain any discussion of feminsm in any ind of negative way, neither for its misandry or for its social and legal adverse effects on men is another. They started out with a number of male commenters and most of them have left. What does that tell you about the actual masculinism of that place?

  • RocketFrog

    Well, to my knowledge, NSWATM never exactly kept it a secret that it was first and foremost a feminist space – albeit one that tried to keep a focus on men (as much as that is possible while still remaining feminist – I know some feminists will argue that focusing on men means that it cannot be feminist by definition).

    They banned me for my periodic slips into extreme misandry (which is arguably an understandably bannable offense on a purported masculist site) when my depressive disorder gets the best of me, and because Noah thought I was a troll. I hold no grudge against them for that.

    There were several feminist critics active on NSWATM threads (at least before they became part of TGMP), like dungone and debaser. That the bloggers themselves never criticized feminism is hardly surprising – they were feminists themselves, after all (and never kept this a secret).

    As for all the male commenters leaving – Noah is still around, as far as I know, except he is busy as editor of TGMP and only posts very rarely, so the only regular blogger left is Ozy, who is trans.

    But yes – sometimes they do drop the ball. That “dating tips for short dudes” was awful and demeaning, for instance.

  • RocketFrog

    I took your analogy to mean you chossing the quiet 1TB drive over an abusive clunker.

    I do not really regard myself as someone who has any real choice in that particular part of life. The choice between “alone” and “alone” is not a meaningful one.

  • elementary_watson

    Just for the record, I’m pretty sure that Ozy identifies as non-binary and/or gender-queer, which is something completely different from trans.

  • RocketFrog

    elementary_watson:

    On this thread: http://goodmenproject.com/noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz/on-intersex-surgery/, Ozy self-identifies as trans.

  • http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/ Danny

    RocketFrog:
    Probably not. But I have a history of being considered at best unsuitable, at worst downright repugnant by women, which indicates that something is wrong.
    It could just mean that you haven’t found a compatible woman yet. Let me ask a flip situation again. If we were talking about a woman who said that she considered herself, “at best unsuitable, at work downright repugnant by men” I think there would be a lot of people that would downright declare that the guys that found her repugnant were the problem, not her.

    Perhaps I am gullible, but I think that feminists in general – particularly the ones who frequently talk about intersectionality – do not actually harbor animosity towards marginalized groups of men.
    They don’t as long as they can maintain a strict separation between “marginalization” and “male”. That is how you can have feminists that simultaneously get in an uproar about the majority of the prison population being men but then say that gender has nothing to do with why men kill themselves more often than women. Oh I just thought of a good one.

    Gingko, how many times have you come across feminists that will argue until Smurfed in the face in order to keep homophobia against men limited to sexual orientation and sexual orientation only while happily blurring sexual orientation and gender together when talking about homophobia against gay women? (Or better yet. How often do we hear the word misogyny tossed about when talking about homophobia against gay women but will actively avoid the word misandry when talking about homophobia against gay men?)

    The USB port on my computer is compatible with a large range of devices, for example USB-connected external hard drives. But if I had the choice, I would prefer a quiet 1 TB drive to a noisy 200 GB clunker, even though my computer is compatible with both.

    Is this analogy too strained, or do you understand what I mean?
    Even if that 1TB drive crashes every other weekend requiring a reformat while that 200GB clunker has been running nonstop perfectly for over 10 years?

    I think the problem is that, as I said above, “creep” has multiple meanings, one of which is “sexual harasser”, the other is “someone who is disturbingly non-typical in public”.
    I have to disagree a bit. If the problem was that creep has multiple uses they would at least be willing to try to alter the lingo to split them apart. If they can redefine sexism, patriarchy, privilege and a whole host of other words this shouldn’t be hard. Besides how many of them actually acknowledge that one can be called a creep on unfair grounds? I remember an article Schwyzer did a while back where the point of the article was to say that misuse of the word creep was a myth put forth by men that were trying to silence women from using it. I don’t recall too many feminists (maybe the ones that hang out over at GMP where it was posted but that’s about it) lining up to correct him and say that indeed it is misused sometimes. Beyond Clarisse Thorn and Ozy on a good day a lot of feminists have firmly declared that creep is NEVER misused by women towards men.

    What I meant about my analogy is that I am an all-but-worthless option who nobody – even someone “compatible” with me – would want, if they can get something better. And nearly all women can. If a woman happens to like science fiction and computer nerds, why settle for a highly defective one, like me, if there are nine better ones to choose from too? (in my USB drive analogy: why go for the noisy 200GB clunker if you can get a quiet 1TB drive?)
    A touch of science fiction right? Think of it this way. When it comes to old clunkers sometimes they really are the better option.
    1. When Han Solo beat Lando in Sabacc, Lando actively tried to give him a more advanced ship just so he wouldn’t take the Millenium Falcon.
    2. In the Firefly episode, “Out of Gas” Mal has a flashback to when he overlooked more popular and higher performance ships and chose that one.
    3. And who can forget that episode of Star Trek TNG where future Riker bragged about how the Enterprise was due for decommission but as an Admiral he gets to pick his own ship, overriding the decommission orders.

    Gingko:
    Their knee-jerk refusal to entertain any discussion of feminsm in any ind of negative way, neither for its misandry or for its social and legal adverse effects on men is another.
    I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that. It’s not that they don’t want anyone to speak of the ills of feminism. I think it’s more of speaking of the ills of feminism is only allowed in a sense of, “Yeah we know there are some bad parts out there but we have already acknowledged that so why spend time bringing it up?” My point is it is allowed but only under an extremely limited scope as if to put up the illusion that all the negative parts of feminism have been accounted for and anyone that brings them up outside of that scope is just complaining. You can see this back in that “Misconceptions of Feminism” post Ozy did a while back. Oh feminists descended on that like a horde of locusts to tell everyone how unfair, mischaracterizing, and possibly misleading it was. I wonder where all that talk was when Marcotte was running free across GMP.

    RocketFrog:
    That the bloggers themselves never criticized feminism is hardly surprising – they were feminists themselves, after all (and never kept this a secret).
    Eh I wouldn’t quite say they never criticized it. But more like I said above it’s done in a very limited way. Almost like they are more afraid of pissing off too many feminists than they are wanting to actually listen to and work with guys.

  • Eagle34

    Everyone, I’ll be performing episode six of my serial play “Speak To Me” on Radio Drama. It starts Saturday, August 25th, 2012 at 10am Pacific Time, 1pm Eastern Time, 6pm UK Time.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/autistic-people-/2012/08/25/radio-drama-speak-to-me-vi–10am-pst

    Please attend as it’s a very sad and controversial episode that will highlight the ignorance and blindness people have towards male victims of abuse from female perpetrators.

    If you miss the performance, it will be available as a podcast after the show is over. The link will still work, though.

  • elementary_watson

    @RocketFrog: Okay, didn’t know that. It was ozy’s insistence on non-gendered pronouns when referring to zir that made me think zie was non-binary.

  • Schala

    You can be trans and non-binary.

  • RocketFrog

    My understanding was also that they were not mutually exclusive terms.

    My point was just that even if NSWATM was “faux-masculist” because most of its male bloggers have left, then it needs to be pointed out that the remaining bloggers do not include even a single cis woman: There is one trans nonbinary and one man.

  • RocketFrog

    Danny:

    It could just mean that you haven’t found a compatible woman yet.

    I have no good reason to believe that any such woman exists.

    Let me ask a flip situation again. If we were talking about a woman who said that she considered herself, “at best unsuitable, at work downright repugnant by men” I think there would be a lot of people that would downright declare that the guys that found her repugnant were the problem, not her.

    To be perfectly honest, I would probably say the same thing about another man, so long as that man was not me (and did not remind me too much of myself).

    But you are right that a woman who is consistently rejected by men has access to sources of moral and emotional support in our culture that men in a similar situation do not (unless they turn to misogynistic types for support). This is one of the things that sort of bugs me about a lot of online feminism (I have not encountered the phenomenon among feminists I have known in real life, although most of those belonged to an older age segment than most of the feminist bloggers whose ages I know): “The successful women’s movement for shaming lonely male losers”.

    Gingko, how many times have you come across feminists that will argue until Smurfed in the face in order to keep homophobia against men limited to sexual orientation and sexual orientation only while happily blurring sexual orientation and gender together when talking about homophobia against gay women?

    The only feminist I know of who acknowledged the Trayvon Martin murder as a sexist (as well as racist) hate crime is Ozy from NSWATM. All others I have known have focused on the fact that Martin was murdered because he was black, not because he was a black man. Black women are not killed by police (or glorified vigilantes like Zimmermann) in the same number as black men are. Martin was murdered because he was black and because he was a man – very few feminists have seemed to acknowledge this.

    Even if that 1TB drive crashes every other weekend requiring a reformat while that 200GB clunker has been running nonstop perfectly for over 10 years?

    I should have added “stable” to the good one and “unstable” to the bad one. The fact of the matter is that I (and other men like me) have no mitigating qualities that better men do not exceed, and even for women who like some of the more untraditional aspects of a personality such as mine, there are plenty of available men who have those same aspects, but otherwise superior.

    Few women want an awkward nerd with socially unacceptable interests, and those who do can get one free of mental handicaps if they want, for the simple reason of economics: The supply of such men far exceeds the demand.

    The Millennium Falcon had a ridiculously fast modified hyperdrive far faster than that of even more modern ships, the Enterprise had a proven track record (and Riker had known that ship for most of his career; the two had a long history together). No reason is given for why Mal chose the Serenity over superior ships (although given his behaviour, I would guess it had to do with how it would likely be underestimated by representatives of the Alliance, precisely because it was an outdated piece of junk).

    I have to disagree a bit. If the problem was that creep has multiple uses they would at least be willing to try to alter the lingo to split them apart. If they can redefine sexism, patriarchy, privilege and a whole host of other words this shouldn’t be hard.

    But why would they? Creep-shaming is only very infrequently used against women, and feminism is primarily that subset of the social justice movements which deals with social injustices against women. But on the other hand, creep-shaming is an effective weapon for women to use against sexual harassers – unfortunately, it has collateral damage, as discussed above. The disagreement, it seems to me, is that most feminists consider that collateral damage acceptable. I am not so sure myself; I can live with having my feelings hurt by feminist rhetoric if it serves a decent purpose.

    But I would like them to understand that they are hurting people by insisting on using terminology that happens to further alienate certain marginalized classes of men, because my working hypothesis has been that many of them are not aware of this (whereas you seem to be working from the hypothesis that they do know, and either do not care, or actively want to hurt, control and alienate marginalized men).

  • elementary_watson

    @Schala: Okay, I stand corrected. (Even though I wonder: Can one be cis and non-binary? If so, I really got some logical problems with those concepts …)

  • Druk

    @RF: Ginkgo said that most of the male commenters have left, not most of the male bloggers have.

    And just a personal pet peeve, please try not to use guilty language when talking about someone who hasn’t been to court yet. Accused rapists aren’t necessarily rapists, and accused murderers are not necessarily murderers. (fun fact: not being able to post something like this is what caused me to finally leave GMP for good)

  • Schala

    “@Schala: Okay, I stand corrected. (Even though I wonder: Can one be cis and non-binary? If so, I really got some logical problems with those concepts …)”

    Yes, you can also.

    I’m trans in large part because I’ve altered my hormonal regimen drastically, though I’m also binary. Were I non-binary but still preferring female hormonal cocktails out of some other reason than identity (ie convenience?), I’d be a trans non-binary. I’m trans because I identify as female while I was identified as male at birth.

    And I could have not altered my hormonal cocktail at all too – but you can’t have a neutral one. Either hormone is dominant, or you suffer osteoporosis as a matter of course. You could also have other ills. Having equal amounts of each would cancel each other out, leaving you without enough nutriments, and wasting your cholesterol-conversion metabolism (all sex hormones are derived from cholesterol – testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, they only differ in their molecular complexity by 1 each (23 cholesterol, 22 testosterone, etc))

  • http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/ Danny

    RocketFrog:
    But you are right that a woman who is consistently rejected by men has access to sources of moral and emotional support in our culture that men in a similar situation do not (unless they turn to misogynistic types for support).
    And given how even some of the very same people that will support those women will then turn around and attack attempts at building up similar support structures for men (because despite what some of them think the reaching out to men in a way that doesn’t start off with presuming worst faith in men is not misogyny in and of itself).

    This is one of the things that sort of bugs me about a lot of online feminism (I have not encountered the phenomenon among feminists I have known in real life, although most of those belonged to an older age segment than most of the feminist bloggers whose ages I know): “The successful women’s movement for shaming lonely male losers”.
    You see what bugs me is this desire to try to surgically separate online feminism from offline feminism….which tends to only happen when people are criticizing bad online feminism. (Seriously when is the last time you heard someone praise some portion of online feminism and feminists came in to correct them and say that that is online feminism not offline feminism at work. For example take Marcotte. Are we supposed to believe that stuff she has spewed online is separate from what she says and does offline?)

    The only feminist I know of who acknowledged the Trayvon Martin murder as a sexist (as well as racist) hate crime is Ozy from NSWATM. All others I have known have focused on the fact that Martin was murdered because he was black, not because he was a black man. Black women are not killed by police (or glorified vigilantes like Zimmermann) in the same number as black men are. Martin was murdered because he was black and because he was a man – very few feminists have seemed to acknowledge this.
    And you aren’t going to find many either because to most of them being male is never a reason that a male is discriminated against. I’ve only been mistreated because I’m fat (but fat women that are mistreated are mistreated because they are fat and they are women), gay men are only mistreated because they are gay (but lesbians are mistreated because they are gay and they are women, poor men are only mistreated because they are poor (but poor women are mistreated because they are poor and they are women), etc…

    The Millennium Falcon had a ridiculously fast modified hyperdrive far faster than that of even more modern ships, the Enterprise had a proven track record (and Riker had known that ship for most of his career; the two had a long history together). No reason is given for why Mal chose the Serenity over superior ships (although given his behaviour, I would guess it had to do with how it would likely be underestimated by representatives of the Alliance, precisely because it was an outdated piece of junk).
    But in each case they could have taken the more advanced model. Han and Chewie did most of the modifying after they got it from Lando (why not get a more advanced ship and do even better upgrades?), I’ll give you Riker’s established history with the Enterprise, and I think Mal made that choose based on an undying loyalty to the cause against the Alliance.

    I am not so sure myself; I can live with having my feelings hurt by feminist rhetoric if it serves a decent purpose.
    That’s part of how they justify it. They have turned creep shaming into a matter of women’s safety versus men’s feelings where women’s safety should win every time. But what has happened is a bit more than that. In actuality it’s a mixture of women’s safety and feelings versus men’s feelings where women’s safety and women’s feelings under the guise of women’s safety should win every time.

    But I would like them to understand that they are hurting people by insisting on using terminology that happens to further alienate certain marginalized classes of men…
    I’m starting to lean towards the assertion that they understand this and either don’t care or it’s a part of their intent. It sounds grim but I think it’s true.

  • Titfortat

    I’m starting to lean towards the assertion that they understand this and either don’t care or it’s a part of their intent. It sounds grim but I think it’s true.(Danny)

    This sums up that idea……..”If you truly want to test a person’s character, give them power.”

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    No, Ozy wasn’t the only one. (peeved)

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    I think it also actually matters if one goes to a public demonstration and shares photos of other black men, as I did… I also did several posts in detail about the “Stand Your Ground” laws here in SC, and made sure people knew about the casualties that have resulted, so far ALL male. I did radio shows about it, had black men and political organizers as guests.

    But hey, I ain’t cool. I am old enough to be Ozy’s mother. Never mind Carry on.

    http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/03/rally-photos-i-am-trayvon-martin.html

    http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/04/more-on-stand-your-ground-laws.html

  • Clarence

    George Zimmerman probably will not be convicted of manslaughter, let alone Murder 2, so I really wish people here would show some of the restraint and nuance they usually bring to other issues when talking about this one. As with the Duke Lacrosse rape case, there’s tons of evidence and legal implications the mainstream media has failed to report, and at times CBS has downright published untruths. For a good review of the evidence in this case from the point-of-view of a famous defense lawyer instead of from a pundit, politician, or prosecuter, I recommend people here go to http://www.talkleft.com and do a search on George Zimmerman. There’s dozens of posts there , with links to all of the released evidence , videos, witness statements, transcripts and audio files, the “walkthrough” video that Zimmerman conducted with the local cops the day after the incident and all the states and defense filings.

    Review it at your leisure or don’t, but please don’t convict a guy of murder in your mind without at least viewing the evidence. I’ve read or listened to most of it over the past 4 months and in my opinion the guy shouldn’t have even been charged – if the local law was being strictly followed – and this is a politically driven prosecution in part to hold off riots. I think it was self-defense all the way. That’s my opinion, and well… you know what they say about opinions.
    Now enough said on that.

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    I am once again back on moderation at Feministe… I think likely due to traffic from this thread.

    As long as I didn’t try to comment there on other posts, they usually let me plug my posts on “Shameless self promotion Sunday”… but after this thread? Busted.

    (sigh)

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    Nah, never mind, they let it go thru.

    But I think the traffic from here was obvious! 😛

    Clarence, Zimmerman stalked and followed someone when it was not his job to do that. He was told by the 911 operator to STOP. I think a fear of increasing vigilante action and “rent a cops” is one reason people have landed so hard on Zimmerman, too. Ain’t just a left or race thing. As Republicans continue to cut public funds for govt services, that also effects law enforcement. People are afraid it will come to this, self-appointed law-and-order types, taking the law into their own hands… check out my “stand your ground” post. A fear of returning to the Wild West, is also what people are reacting to. It simply was not Zimmerman’s job to follow Trayvon, and he was under NO legal obligation to stop for him. I wouldn’t have either. How could it be self-defense if he admits that he followed him after being told to stop? It was not his job to do that, Clarence. Zimmerman was NOT A COP and had no authority to follow somebody just because he didn’t like the way he looked… and that is the bottom line.

    Everything that happened after he decided to be aggressive, he brought on himself. Like my mama taught me, pick a fight, you get one.

  • Clarence

    Daisy:
    Please either do as I suggested and actually look at the evidence or be silent about it.
    I mean , seriously, you can’t even get the conversation straight on the telephone call to the “311” line ( it was neither a cop nor a 911 operator who was talking to him, despite sloppy news reports and such sloppiness being carried all over the blogosphere). I’ll correct you just this once:
    A. He called the “non-emergency line”, not 911. Even had it been 911, neither a 911 operator nor a 311 operator has any legal authority to give you an order whatsoever.
    B. The exact wording was “we don’t need you to do that”. Doesn’t exactly sound like an order even had Zimmerman been talking to a cop. Zimmerman’s defense would be that he was looking for the address or the location of Martin (i.e, in other words in what direction he was running), and that as soon as he heard it was not necessary he turned around to go back when he encountered Martin. Zimmerman’s call history goes back 2 years and is available in the evidence. He had checked locations of fleeing suspects before, and no, he didn’t just call in on black people despite a few sensationalistic stories in the press that could give that impression.

    Now look at all that typing you made me do to correct something you could have easily found out had you taken my suggestion. I wonder how many other misconceptions and things you will throw at me rather than actually examining the evidence? I know you , Daisy, and not only are you needlessly stubborn but when it comes to things like this it’s forever Selma, Alabama to you, despite it being 50 years later, and no white guy being involved. I wonder if you can be fair.

  • RocketFrog

    Daisy,

    I was being unclear in my language, I meant “feminists who run major blogs”. I apologize for that, I can see that my wording might indicate that I think Ozy was the only feminist in the world who believes in anti-male sexism, which is demonstrably not the case.

    I do not recall reading anything you had to say in the matter, but knowing you, I would actually be surprised if you did not also consider profiling of black men an issue of sexism.

  • Danny

    My apologies for not giving you a specific nod Daisy on what you’ve done. But as I say not many feminists did so and I think its notable that you and Ozy are relative outsiders from the main flow of feminism.

    And thanks.

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    but when it comes to things like this it’s forever Selma, Alabama to you, despite it being 50 years later,

    That’s because I live in SC, where it still is.

    Until there is equal racial representation in law enforcement (or whatever Zimmerman was engaged in; “volunteer neighborhood snitch operations”?) I will always be suspicious. Since whites always give whites the benefit of the doubt, I will do the opposite.

    When that is no longer necessary, I’ll stop. :)

    Guilty as charged. I am an advocate, not “fair”–since fair is bullshit and has been used to lynch people. I am sure its FAIR its always a black man given the death penalty in this state too? Right. Sure.

    50 years ago, for you maybe, but not around here.

  • http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ DaisyDeadhead

    I messed up in that last post. I said “lynch people”–

    Lynch BLACK MEN and rape BLACK WOMEN. And take both of their kids away.

    Gender specificity. Yall taught me it. :)

  • Ginkgo


    DaisyDeadhead on August 26, 2012 at 6:51 pm said:

    “I am once again back on moderation at Feministe… I think likely due to traffic from this thread.
    As long as I didn’t try to comment there on other posts, they usually let me plug my posts on “Shameless self promotion Sunday”… but after this thread? Busted.
    (sigh)”

    Someone said you should judge a nation by its enemies, not by its friends, and I think that is a fair standard for individuals too. So you almost made the grade, Daisy. 😛

    As for the advocacy bit, daisy I know exactly what you are talking about. Career Army officer, so I know all about the “Forget? Hell!” license plate rims. I rubbed the nose of a Southern officer who I suspected of neo-Confederate sympathies in that, and he fumed.

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